Okay I know I already have my Stage 2 160/100% injectors but I'm wondering why does the Stage 1 175/146 injectors have a bigger number per say? I know my injectors shoot 160 CC's of fuel and 100% of the load per unit of time correct. So how about the stage 1 Injectors I could understand 175 CC's of fuel but where does the 146 come into play? Can anybody answer this for me. Thanks in advance.
Powerstroke Man 6.4
I will try to answer your question, and piss off a lot of people at the same time. A 160/100 injector means you have a fuel capacity of 160cc. And the 100 refers to the % of flow over a stock nozzle.
The 146
Nozzle is what swamps refers to as a stock nozzle. Based off measurements of the 7 holes in the nozzle.
Now why on earth anyone uses a 100% nozzle on a 160cc injector is beyond me. Any shop with an injector flow bench that would spend enough time testing with it should know there is no reason for that nozzle to be on that size injector. Either A) they have not taken the time to properly research proper nozzle size verses fuel capacity or B) they sell their customers just what ever they have heard online is the best combo and not inform them they might just be putting in something that isn't best for their set up.
It is fun y how many people I talk out of a huge injector into something that better suits their needs, even if I were to lose money.
A customer happy with their setup is a returning customer.
The 146
Nozzle is what swamps refers to as a stock nozzle. Based off measurements of the 7 holes in the nozzle.
Now why on earth anyone uses a 100% nozzle on a 160cc injector is beyond me. Any shop with an injector flow bench that would spend enough time testing with it should know there is no reason for that nozzle to be on that size injector. Either A) they have not taken the time to properly research proper nozzle size verses fuel capacity or B) they sell their customers just what ever they have heard online is the best combo and not inform them they might just be putting in something that isn't best for their set up.
It is fun y how many people I talk out of a huge injector into something that better suits their needs, even if I were to lose money.
A customer happy with their setup is a returning customer.
Same here.. seems like everyone says less than 100% is a waste.... i went with 30% just due to the fact that they should in therory(in my mind) run cleaner and crisper. Im happy with my 160s i was also very happy with my 175/146 sticks from swamps in a previous truck i built.
Here's my, personal, position on injector cc & nozzles size.
background.
There is a limited amount of TIME to inject fuel at any given rpm.
Part of this limitation is a result of the PCM
Part of this limited duration is simply a result of piston speed IN the cylinder.
for example.
at 2500rpm the PCM could allow for @4ms of injector 'on time', below that rpm you could run a longer duration...and above that rpm you would be well suited to run shorter duration.
do not interpret the above statement as you "need" to run that/those injection durations for a given rpm..but this knowledge directly applies to how we build fuel injectors.
I won't give a complete listing of max PW per rpm, as that is proprietary information.
so...arbitrarily.
at (relatively) low rpm you have the option of running extended injection duration
at (relatively) 'high' rpm, you do not have the option of running extended injection duration.
Furthermore, a larger nozzle will have less efficiency than a smaller nozzle. This is simply due to a loss of mechanical atomization as the fuel exits the nozzle.
a small nozzle is going to be easy to tune, will have the ability &/or option of being very clean at low & midrange rpm at the cost of not being able to inject large volumes of fuel at high(er) rpm.
Keep in mind that HOW an injector is BUILT (not simply nozzle size & cc rating) will tremendously affect that injectors performance.
but in short.
a small(er) nozzle would be suitable for stock or near stock rpm.
As engine rpm increases, the mechanical (*and electronic) window of injection opportunity shortens..meaning that the larger nozzle will have the ability to deliver more fuel at higher rpm...but at the cost of poorer atomization.
to put it in perspective...regarding nozzle size.
the stock 94-03 7.3L fuel injector nozzle has 7 holes, each hole with a .0065" orifice.
a stock 6.0L fuel injector nozzle has 6 holes, with each hole approximately .007"
a stock 6.4L injector nozzle has 6 holes, each hole is around .0055"
soooo....just in case someone wasn't sure...
How the injector is built will affect injection pressure & fuel atomization, equally as much as the nozzle orifice size.
Injection pressure & fuel atomization have a littttle bit to do with cleanliness and horsepower, as the common rail engine's have proven.
My recommendation is to determine the engine's operating rpm, based on how the truck/engine will be used, then choose an approximate hp goal...then chose the smallest nozzle that can be tuned for all the various applications. But only if efficiency is at all a concern.
In my experience...
a stock 7.3L nozzle is suitable for up to 385rwhp at/near the factory rpm range.
a 30% nozzle is nicely suited for up to 450rwhp..up to around 3500rpm
larger than that...it seems that injector build quality & tuning are much more integrated than most would think.
background.
There is a limited amount of TIME to inject fuel at any given rpm.
Part of this limitation is a result of the PCM
Part of this limited duration is simply a result of piston speed IN the cylinder.
for example.
at 2500rpm the PCM could allow for @4ms of injector 'on time', below that rpm you could run a longer duration...and above that rpm you would be well suited to run shorter duration.
do not interpret the above statement as you "need" to run that/those injection durations for a given rpm..but this knowledge directly applies to how we build fuel injectors.
I won't give a complete listing of max PW per rpm, as that is proprietary information.
so...arbitrarily.
at (relatively) low rpm you have the option of running extended injection duration
at (relatively) 'high' rpm, you do not have the option of running extended injection duration.
Furthermore, a larger nozzle will have less efficiency than a smaller nozzle. This is simply due to a loss of mechanical atomization as the fuel exits the nozzle.
a small nozzle is going to be easy to tune, will have the ability &/or option of being very clean at low & midrange rpm at the cost of not being able to inject large volumes of fuel at high(er) rpm.
Keep in mind that HOW an injector is BUILT (not simply nozzle size & cc rating) will tremendously affect that injectors performance.
but in short.
a small(er) nozzle would be suitable for stock or near stock rpm.
As engine rpm increases, the mechanical (*and electronic) window of injection opportunity shortens..meaning that the larger nozzle will have the ability to deliver more fuel at higher rpm...but at the cost of poorer atomization.
to put it in perspective...regarding nozzle size.
the stock 94-03 7.3L fuel injector nozzle has 7 holes, each hole with a .0065" orifice.
a stock 6.0L fuel injector nozzle has 6 holes, with each hole approximately .007"
a stock 6.4L injector nozzle has 6 holes, each hole is around .0055"
soooo....just in case someone wasn't sure...
How the injector is built will affect injection pressure & fuel atomization, equally as much as the nozzle orifice size.
Injection pressure & fuel atomization have a littttle bit to do with cleanliness and horsepower, as the common rail engine's have proven.
My recommendation is to determine the engine's operating rpm, based on how the truck/engine will be used, then choose an approximate hp goal...then chose the smallest nozzle that can be tuned for all the various applications. But only if efficiency is at all a concern.
In my experience...
a stock 7.3L nozzle is suitable for up to 385rwhp at/near the factory rpm range.
a 30% nozzle is nicely suited for up to 450rwhp..up to around 3500rpm
larger than that...it seems that injector build quality & tuning are much more integrated than most would think.
opcorn:
wow Golfer that's some good info. and right on to what I was told. Good to know I wasn't fed a line of bull.
So I have read what feels like a million threads about injector size and nozzle size over the last couple years, and the trend I was seeing was that bigger nozzles were the way to go. It had seemed that with modern 7.3 tuning that there were no negative side effects to running 200% nozzles on a moderately sized hybrid injector. I have read about 200/200's and so forth being great, because the payload of fuel can be delivered so quickly at the exact right time that there were no downsides. After reading this I am kind of second guessing that data.
I am no keyboard comando nor expert at 7.3 tuning. I am a guy that is currently trying to finance a set of injectors for my truck, and was planning on getting 250/200's because they cost the same as any other hybrid. I know I don't have enough air to truly support them, but what would be the real losses or gains with them on a truck with an adrenalin hpop, 38r w/ ww2 and high flow outlet, regulated return with supporting fuel mods, valve springs, head studs, beefed up trans, big exhaust, 6637 intake? My truck isn't daily driven anymore and I generally don't pull heavy loads. It is my weekend warrior so to speak. I either use it as a toy or use it to haul my other toys. I would say 10k max but mostly around 6k loads. Unloaded it is just a back up vehicle that might occasionally hook to a sled in a work stock class.
I am no keyboard comando nor expert at 7.3 tuning. I am a guy that is currently trying to finance a set of injectors for my truck, and was planning on getting 250/200's because they cost the same as any other hybrid. I know I don't have enough air to truly support them, but what would be the real losses or gains with them on a truck with an adrenalin hpop, 38r w/ ww2 and high flow outlet, regulated return with supporting fuel mods, valve springs, head studs, beefed up trans, big exhaust, 6637 intake? My truck isn't daily driven anymore and I generally don't pull heavy loads. It is my weekend warrior so to speak. I either use it as a toy or use it to haul my other toys. I would say 10k max but mostly around 6k loads. Unloaded it is just a back up vehicle that might occasionally hook to a sled in a work stock class.
This is my take on a lot of this run 200% nozzles on everything.
Will it work, sure. But it comes down to this, any injector under 250cc really isn't going to be a competition sized injector. Especially a 160cc injector. So why use a nozzle that really does nothing for what the truck is intended for?
A 30% nozzle is perfect to get 160cc out in a usable timeframe. And it is also perfect for a quality injection. 80% will still give a quality injection of slightly more fuel in a usable timeframe.
The 100% by design are not as good as far as a quality injection. But it can move more fuel per time.
Again the 200% even more and 400% more than that. Now can a 400% be made to idle well and be smoke free at idle? Sure with a correctly built injector AND good tuning.
This is where Dave is talking about a good built injector. Many would be shocked at what I have seen on a flowbench from some of the top preened injector builders. We have logged 250/100 injectors that seemed So-so at low rpm on our tests. But as soon as the rpm were increased it wasn't long before our 160/30's were flowing more fuel. And I don't mean we flowed more than 160cc. We just flowed that across the board until our timeframe began to limit us. The 250cc injector just wasn't built right. As are a lot of what we see from other shops.
Example: we have a customer send in his 350/200's from a popular injector shop. Wants to upgrade. We go them them and also upgrade to 400% nozzle. Customer says the truck runs smoother, quieter and just all around better.
Will it work, sure. But it comes down to this, any injector under 250cc really isn't going to be a competition sized injector. Especially a 160cc injector. So why use a nozzle that really does nothing for what the truck is intended for?
A 30% nozzle is perfect to get 160cc out in a usable timeframe. And it is also perfect for a quality injection. 80% will still give a quality injection of slightly more fuel in a usable timeframe.
The 100% by design are not as good as far as a quality injection. But it can move more fuel per time.
Again the 200% even more and 400% more than that. Now can a 400% be made to idle well and be smoke free at idle? Sure with a correctly built injector AND good tuning.
This is where Dave is talking about a good built injector. Many would be shocked at what I have seen on a flowbench from some of the top preened injector builders. We have logged 250/100 injectors that seemed So-so at low rpm on our tests. But as soon as the rpm were increased it wasn't long before our 160/30's were flowing more fuel. And I don't mean we flowed more than 160cc. We just flowed that across the board until our timeframe began to limit us. The 250cc injector just wasn't built right. As are a lot of what we see from other shops.
Example: we have a customer send in his 350/200's from a popular injector shop. Wants to upgrade. We go them them and also upgrade to 400% nozzle. Customer says the truck runs smoother, quieter and just all around better.
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