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cryogenically treated engine block

8.5K views 34 replies 18 participants last post by  ttford07  
#1 ·
Can any one explain what cryogenically treating the engine block is and why its important???
 
#3 ·
Cryogenic tempering can increase molecular strength of material and reduce surface wear. Most 'cryo' places don't have much of a clue other than buying a machine from 300 below - the market leader for cryogenic processor sales...

In the case of an engine block, it would (if done properly) increase the strength of the block. There is also, what I consider theoritical, belief that it helps dissipate heat. I have been researching cryogenic tempering and have read some very interesting case studies...

Three important questions to ask:
What is the ramp rate for the cryo process?
What is the soak time?
What post-cryo processing is performed?

If the shop doesn't know or won't share, find someone else.

Sam
 
#4 ·
I don't want to hijack, but I have a quick question for those who know. Is Cryogenic processing the same as what is known as Heat treatment in the aircraft industry? The reason I ask is I used to work at a place that builds airplanes, could I simply have someone heat treat my rotors for me? (assuming that heat treating aluminum aircraft parts would be the same process for steel)
 
#10 ·
Can you cryo a block that has already been filled?

Do you cryo before or after machine work?

thanks
 
#22 ·
Can you cryo a block that has already been filled?
I don't think that would be a good idea. I imagine, the fill material is not stable to the lower temperature and would have a different coefficient of thermal expansion. The difference in CTE would likely result in damage to the fill areas (fracturing/breakeage). If you wanted to get a block Cryo'd, do it before machine work and filling.Do you cryo before or after machine work? You can have your parts cryo'd before or after machine work. It will not affect any gains from cryo before or after.
thanks
Do people generally charge by the piece when doing this process? Most places that run a 300 below system charge by the pound - or a set price if they do substantial business with a type of part.
Sounds like its just a big soak tub that you put all the parts in, so seems like you could get a bunch of parts done at the same time? Or am i seeing it wrong. You are limited to the size of the processor. Imagine a giant chest freezer. The weight limit is usually ~2,000lbs per process - the more weight in the chamber - the less it actually costs per pound.
Id like to do as much as i can to strengthen things, but the price tag will dictate what i can actually do
The process looks like a big chest freezer. The parts don't actually 'soak', in a liquid, the nitrogen is introduced as a gas to slowly bring the temperature down to around 300 below zero. Some cryo processing is a wet process. It is much less cost efficient and offers different results than the gas process.We generally charge by the pound, but there are certain parts that have set prices. Let us know if we can help...
I will not believe dramatic claims of vast increases in tensile strength or wear resistance from that process alone. I do feel that it does offer small improvements that often are worth the effort though.
I hope to have an answer to this by the end of the year. Looking at having PMR, Forged, Cryo Forged, and if I could get donated samples the Carillo, Hypermax, etc brands as well tensile and shear tested...

Can you Cryo and Coat the same object, or do they not mix? Also if at all possible, and both are performed could you expect (with correct supporting mods) to not blow up a 7.3 running with a max tune of 600hp, and a daily tune of 300 or so? Yes you can cryo and then have the parts coated. You would not want to do it in reverse (coated and then cryo'd).
Crank, Connecting Rods, Pistions, Block, Cam (why not, your already there), valves, pushrods, heads, and block.
If I were to be having an engine built again, I would have everything cryo'd and then heat treated. I have reviewed some very interesting studies that show some definitive benefits. The studies were with other alloys, but I believe that there is enough correlation to make it worthwhile.

Sam
 
#11 ·
Induction hardening of the Cylinders like a Duramax would be sweet too !!
 
#12 ·
Do people generally charge by the piece when doing this process?

Sounds like its just a big soak tub that you put all the parts in, so seems like you could get a bunch of parts done at the same time? Or am i seeing it wrong.

Id like to do as much as i can to strengthen things, but the price tag will dictate what i can actually do
 
#13 ·
The process looks like a big chest freezer. The parts don't actually 'soak', in a liquid, the nitrogen is introduced as a gas to slowly bring the temperature down to around 300 below zero.

We generally charge by the pound, but there are certain parts that have set prices. Let us know if we can help...
 
#14 ·
not to derail, but i have read about companies doin chain saw chains. could you do one of them to, and how much to do it? send me a pm rockinjw?? i have always been interested in trying a cryo'd chain. the weight would be less than a 1/2 pound, as im sure you can imagine.
 
#19 ·
I will not profess to have any expert knowledge on the subject, although I have done a few tool life comparisons with cryoed cutting tools. My understanding is that the process when applied to previously heat treated metals, is that it facilitates a more complete phase transformation of the molecules that change shape when the heat treat quench is performed. Lets say you go from 92% transformed molecules to 95%. My experience with the cutting tools was that there was a slight improvement in wear resistance but nothing as substantial as say the application of a high performance coating will provide. I don't have experience with metals that are soft to begin with, and their only thermal treatment is cryo. I will not believe dramatic claims of vast increases in tensile strength or wear resistance from that process alone. I do feel that it does offer small improvements that often are worth the effort though.
 
#20 ·
Can you Cryo and Coat the same object, or do they not mix? Also if at all possible, and both are performed could you expect (with correct supporting mods) to not blow up a 7.3 running with a max tune of 600hp, and a daily tune of 300 or so?

Crank, Connecting Rods, Pistions, Block, Cam (why not, your already there), valves, pushrods, heads, and block.
 
#24 ·
Last time I was at BTS having a tranny done on a customers truck I spoke with Brian about the cryo process as he has many of his tranny parts cryoed. He explained the process to me and told me what to ask when speaking with a company about having parts cryoed. He told me that dwell time is one of the most important factors for proper cryo treating.

We have a Cryo shop about an hour from us that does a large amount of parts for drag cars and pulling trucks and tractors in this area. I have spoke with them several times about their process and have decided that we are cryoing every piece of our new pulling truck engine that we are currently working on.

I was actually shocked at the price as I figured it would be very expensive. However they quoted me $550 for every piece of the engine from the valve covers to the oil pan.

My machinist is doing all the basic rough machining pryor to us having the parts cryoed. Then once they are cryoed he will put the final finish on everything.
 
#25 ·
We've had good success with our cryoed parts. And we recommend doing the cryo work first, before machine work and definitley before you fill the block. Also, for those interested, we've got cryoed stock forged rods on the shelf ready to ship.
 
#28 ·
The first link provides pretty good general information. The second is just another PR spot for 300 below. I would venture to guess all of the parts sold by Sponsors are processed using a 300 below machine and following their prescribed process.

I looked at the link entitled cryogenic processing, and while it had excellent descriptions of methods and formula for the standard tests used for determining metal strength and hardness, I did not see results of changes in these numbers due to cryo process?
That is because it varies based on the specific metallurgy you are talking about. The article couldn't possibly cover the range of applications. The only companies that have hard trade studies consider it proprietary and won't share. I am hoping to have a series of rods tested in the fall (gathering rods and resources $$$) to quantify the strength properties of PMR, forged, cryo forged, and if I can get samples or $ to buy the big name aftermarket rods. I believe that the cryo process will result in ~15% (at least) greater shear and tensile numbers. But we shall see.

Sam
 
#27 ·
I looked at the link entitled cryogenic processing, and while it had excellent descriptions of methods and formula for the standard tests used for determining metal strength and hardness, I did not see results of changes in these numbers due to cryo process?
 
#30 ·
How much will those rods hold after the process?
 
#31 ·
I didn't intend for those links to provide data of before and after. Just wanted to shine some light on the details of process, and some of the physics. The second link explains how they say they get huge gains like “200%”, seems pretty reasonable to me. But their huge gains aren’t in strength but in the life of a cutting tool, as per article. Being able to cut twice as many holes per sharpening, and more sharpening for the life of the tool. Anyone who has experiences with stainless and high carbon steel knives know that high carbon blades are harder, hold an edge longer, are sharper, and you remove less material to re-sharpen them. But they’re high maintenance and brittle.
 
#32 ·
Say your rebuilding a 7.3 and have it Acid Bathed, how much would it cost to Cryo the whole motor, including all internal parts capable of being treated?

Then what would it cost to coat all engine internal you can (I don't know what parts can be coated, so for sake of arguement anything within the motor you can). I also don't know what types of coatings there are, so prices for each type of coating if possible, and what the differences between types of coatings. (I also don't know if theres different types of coatings, so I'm asking anyway)
 
#35 ·
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