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Discussion Starter #1
Obviously there are a examples on the net and in mags of trucks running CNG/#2 to aid their MPG numbers. I'm wondering what the reality is? Not that I don't trust the things printed in Diesel Power, I just like 2nd opinions...

I just got off the phone with Marc Deluca: http://www.delucafuelproducts.com/

He seemed like a super nice guy. He explained in detail how everything worked together along with the pros/cons. I think he was being honest but of course he's going to seem that way, he's trying to sell a product.

Does anyone have any FIRST-hand experience running CNG? The "I know a guy" stories usually don't hold much water.

Is the reason there don't seem to be too many ford examples out there because of serious issues involved with running CNG or is it a case of no one wants to be a guinea pig?

Marc gave me a number of one of his customers up in New York with a fleet of 6.4 and 6.0 service trucks all running cng, who have reported back great results. I will call later today on that one.


So is this a case of snake oil or is it the real deal?


Thoughts?
 

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I'm interested also.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I'm waiting for the customer that Marc referred me to-to call back. In the mean time I found the contact info for the guy who posted ridiculous MPG numbers for DPC 2010 and sent him an email. Hopefully he gets back to me as well.

Up front the kits aren't too expensive nor do they sound hard to install. They feed CNG before the turbo from what I gather, so that doesn't sound too involved.

Excluding the tanks, the price for the kit was roughly $1400(He gave me the exact price but it's on a piece of paper downstairs and I'm too lazy to go and get it). There was also an option for the necessary fittings that ran $150. He sold them separately because I guess when you go and buy a tank they'll sometimes come with all the same fittings and he didn't want a person to buy them twice.

Tanks look to be the spendy part. Looking at used options on ebay, they range from $200 up to $1500 with expiration dates 2 to 6 years out.

This site has CNG prices for the country: http://www.cngprices.com/

Looks like it's $2 and under where I'm going to live. Not too bad.

Even with all of this, is it worth it?

I don't care about any HP/TRQ increases. That can all be handled with my Spartan. Price wise, it's in the same range of a tuner/tunes/intake/exhaust for my 6.4 so that's not a huge deal. It doesn't sound like a bad deal. I've been wrong before though...
 

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CNG is like propane in this situation. It is an auxiliary fuel. The diesel blowtorches it into combustion.

When figuring MPG, you have to account for the auxiliary fuel - unless you are getting it for free.
 

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Jack Ken
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The main difference between CNG and LPG is the fact you cant carry enough fuel to make a huge difference. With LP a tank can be filled 80% with CNG your looking at around a 33%. But it does have a higher BTU content per unit than LP so you could make "more power" but have a shorter range.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
CNG is like propane in this situation. It is an auxiliary fuel. The diesel blowtorches it into combustion.

When figuring MPG, you have to account for the auxiliary fuel - unless you are getting it for free.

I get that part and no I would not be getting it for free. It looks to be fairly cheap in the area where I'll be moving but not free.

The customer that Marc put me in contact with was claiming that his mileage doubled with CNG. I don't know how accurate that is. I got in touch with him yesterday but he was busy so I said we should talk later.

If the claims are true, it would still be beneficial though(unless I am looking at it wrong).

Here's how I see it. If a fill up of a 38 gallon tank of diesel costs $152($4 per gallon) and a fill up of a 15.1(rounded to 15)gge tank of CNG costs $28.05($1.87 in my area), that only comes out to $180.05 as opposed to $304 if someone was to only run #2 to equal the same distance travelled.

I am math stupid but that looks like a savings of over $100.

Am I looking at this all wrong?

Obviously the numbers are in a "perfect" type scenario but anything even close seems like it would be a benefit.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The main difference between CNG and LPG is the fact you cant carry enough fuel to make a huge difference. With LP a tank can be filled 80% with CNG your looking at around a 33%. But it does have a higher BTU content per unit than LP so you could make "more power" but have a shorter range.

I am not following you. I know that CNG reqires a larger tank but what is the 33% part all about?

Sorry if that's a dumb question.
 

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How are you going to purchase your CNG? I know there are kits that tap into your house meter how does that figure into the equation?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
How are you going to purchase your CNG? I know there are kits that tap into your house meter how does that figure into the equation?
It's sold locally for $2 and under per gallon. I would ASSume as long as the tank is DOT approved and all the correct fittings were used you could take it to any fill station.

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong though.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
The main difference between CNG and LPG is the fact you cant carry enough fuel to make a huge difference. With LP a tank can be filled 80% with CNG your looking at around a 33%. But it does have a higher BTU content per unit than LP so you could make "more power" but have a shorter range.

Ok, so I didn't understand what you were talking about so I copy/pasted your response into an email to Marc and here's what I got back:

"It is certainly true that LP has a higher energy density since it is liquefied. A cng tank will be quite a bit larger than the LP tank to do the same range. But you can still run a high percentage of cng on a diesel and have decent range. With a 10 GGE tank, you should be able to do 200 miles while getting near 50 MPG on diesel.
Marc DeLuca
DeLuca Fuel Products LLC
740-622-7942
www.delucafuelproducts.com"


Is that more or less what you were getting at?
 

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Jack Ken
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Yeah thats what I was saying, basiclly the same "gallon" sized tank will have to be 3 times bigger to hold the same amount of fuel.

The other advantage to CNG over LP is you can run a much higher percent of CNG to diesel. Ive heard of guys running 80% Cng to 20% diesel, never saw just heard of. Where LP you can only ge tabout 20% LP to 80% Diesel. If you have access to it and stay close to your fuel point go for it. You also must remember that CNG is an "american fuel" as well!! I beileve about 90% is produced domesticlly.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Yeah thats what I was saying, basiclly the same "gallon" sized tank will have to be 3 times bigger to hold the same amount of fuel.

The other advantage to CNG over LP is you can run a much higher percent of CNG to diesel. Ive heard of guys running 80% Cng to 20% diesel, never saw just heard of. Where LP you can only ge tabout 20% LP to 80% Diesel. If you have access to it and stay close to your fuel point go for it. You also must remember that CNG is an "american fuel" as well!! I beileve about 90% is produced domesticlly.

Tank size is a concern but not a huge one it looks like 10-15 gallon tanks would take up a space roughly the size of a truck box. If that is the case, I wouldn't have any problems sacrificing that much space in my bed. Anything more than that and I think it becomes less desireable.

As far as the ratio's go. Most people start off running 1:1 until they get a feel for it but 2:1 and 3:1 are not unheard of. It all depends on what the truck is doing. He mentioned at 3:1 he was having trouble putting any kind of load on the engine. Not towing or hauling, he was having trouble making it up certain inclines and his EGT's were hovering around a level that he didn't thing was safe. BUT, on flat ground he posted ridiculous MPG numbers. IIRC, he backed it down to 2:1 and that was the sweet spot for his duramax. He mentioned every truck is different and that the ratio just needs to be played with to determine what is "best".


Definitely didn't know about the "made in the USA" part. That's pretty cool too.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
So another one of my thoughts is that I can sacrifice SOME bed space but I wouldn't want to get too crazy with it. I still haul stuff from time to time.

By the looks of it there is a 12 gallon tank that will take up about as much space but still be under the bed rails so it wouldn't be to unsightly. I'm looking into info on a 21 gallon tank but it seems like it is super expensive and hard to come by.

I was dinkin around under my truck yesterday trying to see if there was a spot to run a 2nd(smaller)tank and it looks like the only spot would be in place of the existing fuel tank. Then I found these threads:

http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f22/excursion-fuel-tank-yes-can-done-52000/
http://powerstrokenation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91187

It appears that the Excursion tank fits nicely where our spare tires mount(I have no problems losing my spare tire). I don't really care about having a 44 gallon tank(It's already too expensive to fill up a 38gl one), but having a tank out back as opposed to along the frame rail opens up a ton of space. I think there would be enough room for an 8 gallon CNG tank in that locations. The only problem I can see is the filler for the fuel tank. I think it would have to be relocated and they one's in either of those thread don't work for me. I would want the filler coming out of a fuel door even if a 2nd one had to be installed behind the rear tire. Coming out over the frame or poking through the bed makes the job look half-assed to me.

Going off of Marc's words(again, that has been my only source of info so someone please correct me if I'm wrong), A 10 gallon cng tank should extend the range roughly 200 miles. Going along that train of thought, 21 gallons of cng should net somewhere north of 350 I would think. And at roughly $2 per gallon that would be about $200 to double my MPG.

Does that sound right?


I've already started pricing Excursion tanks and it looks like they can be had for a decent price.
 

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I've already started pricing Excursion tanks and it looks like they can be had for a decent price.
So, compressed natural gas can be placed in a regular tank? I had thought that it needed to be in a special tank as it was compressed.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
So, compressed natural gas can be placed in a regular tank? I had thought that it needed to be in a special tank as it was compressed.
Sorry, I worded that like an idiot.

What I was looking into was losing my 38 gallon fuel tank and replacing it with an excursion tank. The excursion tank mounts behind the axle so it would free up all that space along the driver's side frame rail.

In that space I think there would be enough space to mount an 8 gallon CNG tank and then I could run a 10-13 gallon CNG tank in the bed. It would be nice to have somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 gallons of CNG along with 40+ gallons of diesel. I still need to look into the excrusion tank swap some more but it doesn't seem too bad.
 

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curious to know who the customer is that you talked to? There is a local natural gas company that has a bunch of 6.4's and 6L's that run CNG on their trucks and i had talked to one of the guys that had come to check one of the gas lines on our property and he said it made a huge difference with power and milage. I live in western NY and just wondering if this company is the customer that was refered to you to talk to.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
curious to know who the customer is that you talked to? There is a local natural gas company that has a bunch of 6.4's and 6L's that run CNG on their trucks and i had talked to one of the guys that had come to check one of the gas lines on our property and he said it made a huge difference with power and milage. I live in western NY and just wondering if this company is the customer that was refered to you to talk to.

I've got his info at home. All I remember is that his name is Dave. I think we ran a welding shop or something along those lines.
I'll post the info when I get home.

Here is the guy that ran it for DPC last year: http://www.camomaxracing.com/

He posted some insane numbers but his truck is super light.

I sent him a quick email the other day but I don't think he's responded yet.
 

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Sorry, I worded that like an idiot.
:doh: LOL! Nah, you're just moving faster than your keystrokes. Thanks for the clarification!
 

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curious to know who the customer is that you talked to? There is a local natural gas company that has a bunch of 6.4's and 6L's that run CNG on their trucks and i had talked to one of the guys that had come to check one of the gas lines on our property and he said it made a huge difference with power and milage. I live in western NY and just wondering if this company is the customer that was refered to you to talk to.

Looks like the company that I was referred to was Cotton Well Drilling Co Inc in Sheridan NY.

I don't want to put out his personal number but the number to the company is (716) 672-2788

Dave was the name I was given to talk to about the trucks.

Not sure if this is the same company that you delt with. It'd be cool if it was though.
 
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