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PSN Pretender
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I recently have been playing around with water injection. Currently I am using a 250 psi Aquatec pump which feeds a 4 port manifold that is only feeding two 14 gph nozzles. I am planning on adding two additional 7 gph nozzles for the track.

Running this setup I am not seeing any changes in egt's, but I am defiantly using some water. So I ramped up the controller a tad to get the pump up to full song sooner to see if I could get the egt's to change.

Today while pulling a hill, boosted to 20 psi, water on, egt's around 800, engine developed a miss. I quickly turned off the water just as I crested the hill and it still ran rough. As I coasted down the other side (1 mile) the engine smoothed out and continued to run perfect the rest of the night.

Is it possible that injecting water with already cool egt's can cause issues?

Will water not make much of a difference until things get hot?

How much water should I be spraying?

FWIW egt's are not an issue when towing and things only get hot in my performance programs.
 

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A Ghost these days...
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Im running 2 nozzles on my little ole set up. (1) 9gph & (1) 12gph. So im sure your not spraying too much water. 800* doesn't sound like too cool of temps to inject. Plus, 20psi of boost is plenty to atomize the injected water.

Im not sure about your miss...
Is the truck still blowing a little smoke while pulling the hill? Is there any water vapor coming from your CCV?

Both my nozzles come on full @ 12psi and temps and EGT's get no lower than 800*.

Im still trying to learn and read everything I can on water injection. ;)
 

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Sure sounds like you were putting the flame out. The truck is running fine. You crank the water up higher and have a miss. You turn the water off and the miss goes away.

Did you check the nozzles spraying visually before final install?

What are you running for a controller or are you running one?


Yes with already cool egts it can cause an issue. Whether or not that is your issue ?? But it does seem likely you had to much water. Most of the smart controllers like Cooling Mist and Snow have safety min not to cut on until a certain egt is reach and then reference off of boost making a curve to max boost. For towing off egts



I would have thought given your boost range to have the water with those size nozzles just starting at 20 psi and then ramping up full with your max boost guessing is around 60 psi maybe more?
 

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Yes
Yes
Yes
 

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An important feature of water is its polar nature. The water molecule forms an angle, with hydrogen atoms at the tips and oxygen at the vertex. Since oxygen has a higher electronegative than hydrogen, the side of the molecule with the oxygen atom has a partial negative charge. An object with such a charge difference is called a dipole. The charge differences cause water molecules to be attracted to each other (the relatively positive areas being attracted to the relatively negative areas) and to other polar molecules. This attraction contributes to hydrogen bonding, and explains many of the properties of water, such as solvent action.
 

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PSN Pretender
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Discussion Starter #7
Did you check the nozzles spraying visually before final install?

Yup, looked fine.

What are you running for a controller or are you running one?

Snow Stg. 2


I would have thought given your boost range to have the water with those size nozzles just starting at 20 psi and then ramping up full with your max boost guessing is around 60 psi maybe more?
I really never get much over 25 psi while towing, so I was turning it on at around 10 and full on by 45psi. At the track it will be more like you described.

An important feature of water is its polar nature. The water molecule forms an angle, with hydrogen atoms at the tips and oxygen at the vertex. Since oxygen has a higher electronegative than hydrogen, the side of the molecule with the oxygen atom has a partial negative charge. An object with such a charge difference is called a dipole. The charge differences cause water molecules to be attracted to each other (the relatively positive areas being attracted to the relatively negative areas) and to other polar molecules. This attraction contributes to hydrogen bonding, and explains many of the properties of water, such as solvent action.
WOW............. read that one twice and still not sure what you meant, very cool stuff though!.:D
 

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Rented Mule
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I really never get much over 25 psi while towing, so I was turning it on at around 10 and full on by 45psi. At the track it will be more like you described.



WOW............. read that one twice and still not sure what you meant, very cool stuff though!.:D
Yea, he pretty much lost me at water.:D ;)
 

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I really never get much over 25 psi while towing, so I was turning it on at around 10 and full on by 45psi. At the track it will be more like you described.
For towing if you set off egt you need to have it coming in a bit before things get too hot otherwise its playing catch up. But still needs to come on in a curve that does not start to low.

The issue is when you look at what many recommend for flow rates they are factoring a 25/75-50/50 mix meth/H2O. With straight water you have : more of it and no extra meth for fuel.

What is your max boost with the way you are waste gated that you see at WOT?

If you are going to reference off boost you still need to go off what your engine will produce as you are otherwise pumping in too much water if you try to use it all at a lower boost or shorter curve.

Given a boost max of say 60 I would start at 20 which with a snow controller would be 10% flow capacity and then you can try in small stages dropping the starting ref boost to a lower psi point. You can also try dropping the max psi ref point and see how low it can take full water. If you are able to drop a significant amount then you could look at adding more nozzles. the stage 3 controller gives you much more control and options in tuning.

The only thing I get concerned about with water only is that I think it may be possible to add enough water to actually decrease power but not have noticeable quench from SOP or listening. That is why I always think it best to error on the side of a decent safety margin with less water.

I am getting ready to try a Cooing Mist setup with this new build in my X. I have heard very good things about them and their pumps. I will be using a multi stage controller. That way I can have a low volume stage with small jets for typical cruising to gain some mpg and keep things clean. Then have the larger second stage to come on with heavy towing or hard driving WOT etc.. I liked the snows stage 3 controller but never upgraded to one as I hated their pumps. I use to run a 25/75 but have since decided it would not be worth the risk given how much $$$ goes into these builds.
 

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Busted Knuckles
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Yea, he pretty much lost me at water.:D ;)
I understand the whole spiel but what i didn't get was how it related to this thread. Kinda seemed like he wanted to make sure everyone knew that he could ramble off random facts about the molecular geometry of water?? But what do I know I guess... if there is a relation I would love to hear it. Thank you.
 

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FORD..THE ROCK CRUSHER
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I understand the whole spiel but what i didn't get was how it related to this thread. Kinda seemed like he wanted to make sure everyone knew that he could ramble off random facts about the molecular geometry of water?? But what do I know I guess... if there is a relation I would love to hear it. Thank you.
I think his sig is the reason for the rambling...
 

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FORD..THE ROCK CRUSHER
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:shrug: sorry thats all i got out of that post...
 

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I recently have been playing around with water injection. Currently I am using a 250 psi Aquatec pump which feeds a 4 port manifold that is only feeding two 14 gph nozzles. I am planning on adding two additional 7 gph nozzles for the track.

Running this setup I am not seeing any changes in egt's, but I am defiantly using some water. So I ramped up the controller a tad to get the pump up to full song sooner to see if I could get the egt's to change.

Today while pulling a hill, boosted to 20 psi, water on, egt's around 800, engine developed a miss. I quickly turned off the water just as I crested the hill and it still ran rough. As I coasted down the other side (1 mile) the engine smoothed out and continued to run perfect the rest of the night.

Is it possible that injecting water with already cool egt's can cause issues?

Will water not make much of a difference until things get hot?

How much water should I be spraying?

FWIW egt's are not an issue when towing and things only get hot in my performance programs.
I am running water w my setup, but don't inject that soon. I have 2 175cc, and 1 300cc nozzle. Mine comes on above 1050, and 12psi, 30% duty cycle and reaches 100% by 1300 and 25psi. Seems to me that 800 is a bit low to start injecting. Really no need because your already running cool. That's part of the reason why you didn't see a drop in egt's. Try adjusting the water to 1000 or more and see what happens.

Sean
 

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I think the talk about the bonding properties of water was meant to be applied to the reference that the water should be atomized enough by the boost. If i remember HS science enough, water mist is hard to atomize because it consistently wants to bond to the other droplets of water. This could possibly explain the miss, the egt's werent hot enough, so the water was present during the injection event, causing improper combustion or no combustion resulting in a miss. When you turned off the water it took a little bit of time for the cylinder to heat back up and for the combustion event to return to normal.

Also i believe the idea of injecting meth/water solution is it helps atomize the solution faster. Cant exactly remember the chemical make-up of methanol, but something makes me thing the methanol has an extra hydrogen, helping balance out the water's charge and preventing the water from condensating and bonding with the other water atoms...

anyways, basically by adding methanol you reduce the amount of water and add a semi-combustable material to the mix, creating both a lower in temperature and more fuel giving a rise in power and a drop in egts.

boils down to you didnt have enough heat present to allow the water to do its job. From my understanding you need to have enough heat that it actually eliminates the water before combustion, but in eliminating that water heat energy is used thus resulting in lower EGT's



btw if i'm wrong someone please correct me, I am by no means an expert, just simply sharing what I believe is going on from my understanding of chemistry and our engines
 

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Busted Knuckles
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That makes sense. Methanol is a methyl group (CH3) with an alcohol group (OH) attached making it a polar molecule. Thus it won't stick to the H2O groups making it combustable. Thank you for the realization!
 

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yea thats what I was thinking, not to mention because it is in solution, when it is injected the actual amount of water is less than if you were to inject just a straight water kit...
 
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