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Project Shamu
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Discussion Starter #1
Hey guys, I've been thinking about it alot lately, and I'm trying to wrap my head around this, maybe you guys can answer it.

When I tow my trailer, I tow in my 40hp Heavy Tow tune from Swamps, now this tune is a slouch compared to my hot street or extreme tune, but it allows me to keep my foot at the metal in 3rd without my EGTs getting over 1250*, which is quite nice. But it's quite slow and I have to push the truck very hard

So now im thinking how I get better at pulling these hills, and not needing to push it so hard. And I thought about injectors and a turbo to do this, but then I thought, I'm only using my 40hp tune, so the injectors are far from being tapped out right? I just need someway to keep the EGTs lower, so i can push it harder in an 80hp or higher tune right?

I already have an intercooler, and WW2, but what is the next step? Water meth? Better turbo? Better tuning? Or am I thinking about it wrong, and I do need different injectors to step up?
 
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Hey guys, I've been thinking about it alot lately, and I'm trying to wrap my head around this, maybe you guys can answer it.

When I tow my trailer, I tow in my 40hp Heavy Tow tune from Swamps, now this tune is a slouch compared to my hot street or extreme tune, but it allows me to keep my foot at the metal in 3rd without my EGTs getting over 1250*, which is quite nice. But it's quite slow and I have to push the truck very hard

So now im thinking how I get better at pulling these hills, and not needing to push it so hard. And I thought about injectors and a turbo to do this, but then I thought, I'm only using my 40hp tune, so the injectors are far from being tapped out right? I just need someway to keep the EGTs lower, so i can push it harder in an 80hp or higher tune right?

I already have an intercooler, and WW2, but what is the next step? Water meth? Better turbo? Better tuning? Or am I thinking about it wrong, and I do need different injectors to step up?
Lt. Dan, In the same boat. Trying to figure next move too. Curious,what gear ratio you have in rearend.? Have to done anything to tranny?


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Project Shamu
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Discussion Starter #3
I have 4.10s with 35" (33.75" tires with weight on them), and a heavily modified E4OD from DieselSite.

I'm thinking about stepping up to 4.30s, but I'm afraid it's going to be just too much gearing and is going to scream the entire time
 

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Project Shamu
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Discussion Starter #4
Also thinking about a GearVendors...
 

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I have 4.10s with 35" (33.75" tires with weight on them), and a heavily modified E4OD from DieselSite.

I'm thinking about stepping up to 4.30s, but I'm afraid it's going to be just too much gearing and is going to scream the entire time
I have 410s too but with the bigger tires my ratio is down to 3.92 is what formula shows. I do believe the 430s to 456s will help pull hills and mountains and I agree would scream down the highway. 7.3 technology is old school.
Also it's been suggested to add electric fuel pump to maximize injectors. These old trucks are probably not getting full fuel due to screens in tanks getting stopped up and the slow mechanical fuel pump. Eliminating that would save fuel leaks in the valley. That is probably my next move. Wintering in Arizona so no mountain pulling for awhile. Let me know what you decide and how it turns out as I will let you know too.


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Lt. Dan,

I haven't heard good things about the Gear Vendors units.... I wish I had book-marked the sites that I was reading. As I recall, the overdrive units were really designed for high output cars then later were adapted to trucks. It seems that the units are more prone to premature failure when put behind a truck that is towing. I considered one for my truck prior to swapping the transmission. I had a friend that bought one that needed a rebuild but after looking at it he decided that it wouldn't hold up in his truck either. I'll like to find a tune that mimics the International 235 hp program that put out 620 ft-lbs of torque at 1400 rpm. Just curious - how much torque does your tow tune allow?

Cj
 

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Project Shamu
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Discussion Starter #7
Lt. Dan,

I haven't heard good things about the Gear Vendors units.... I wish I had book-marked the sites that I was reading. As I recall, the overdrive units were really designed for high output cars then later were adapted to trucks. It seems that the units are more prone to premature failure when put behind a truck that is towing. I considered one for my truck prior to swapping the transmission. I had a friend that bought one that needed a rebuild but after looking at it he decided that it wouldn't hold up in his truck either. I'll like to find a tune that mimics the International 235 hp program that put out 620 ft-lbs of torque at 1400 rpm. Just curious - how much torque does your tow tune allow?

Cj
The Gear Vendors were originally designed for big 5 ton trucks, but were later adapted and scaled down to fit in pickup trucks. They have certain things they recommend not doing, such as exhaust or engine braking. They also recommend you dont try and back up a hill with a heavy load. Seems these units are good at putting force on the drive side of all the gears, but not so much on the coast side.

I have heard of their hit and miss reliability also, which makes me weary, and damn their expensive, but jeez would it be nice to have gear splitting and the double overdrive with some very low rearend gears...
 

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Lt.Dan,

Interesting... hadn't heard that about Gear Vendors. Now if you could find one that had been behind a 5 ton... I hear you on the gearing, though, as that is what pushed me to load a 10 speed in my truck. More gears :).

Cj
 

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Project Shamu
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Discussion Starter #9
Lt.Dan,

Interesting... hadn't heard that about Gear Vendors. Now if you could find one that had been behind a 5 ton... I hear you on the gearing, though, as that is what pushed me to load a 10 speed in my truck. More gears :).

Cj
Yeah I wish I hadn't dumped $5k into my E4OD and spent the money on something like you have. Oh well, maybe next time.
 

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Well the 10 speed has come with its own challenges... I had to learn to shift all over again. There is also adjusting the clutch as I didn't get the auto adjust clutch setup. Cab is noisier as well so at some point I'll need to add some sound proofing.
 

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Project Shamu
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Discussion Starter #11
Yeah and I want an automatic. I'm too lazy lol.

Back on track, does anybody know the answer to my original question? Is it worth it trying to chase after using my current AB (130cc) injectors to the full extent? Or step up in injector and turbo size and get it over with?
 

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I'm no expert in pulling large mountain passes, but i have towed @10K with the truck in my profile pic up some pretty steep hill country grades here in TX. I had swamps tuning and an intercooler, not sure if it being a banks cooler matters but it was in the truck when I bought it. I'm not sure what my tunes we're rated at as dave at swamps just named them light tow and heavy tow, but my truck is a federal truck so I have the smaller 90 cc single shot AA code injectors and just a stock rebuilt trans with a large cooler and racer X converter. Stock turbo, stock 4.10 gears, 35" tires egts around the same temp pulling 10K up a 7% grade at about 80, now I was in the floor but only to maintain the 80mph.

I know kind of a bunch of useless info I think I'm more or less thinking out loud there, LOL. You didn't mention anything about your exhaust, you may want to consider, not sure if you can get away with straight pipe in California, but definitely get a BFH and a full 3" downpipe and lose the factory smashed cobra head, if you can a good 4" downpipe back exhaust and ditch the cat, if you can't ditch it at the very least replace it with a new one. The factory exhaust on the obs trucks is a HUGE choke on the engine.

Another thing I don't know how much it would help with egt or power when towing but I did notice a big change for the good in general driveability when I did the e-fuel coversion on my truck. I hadn't really towed too much at least not too heavy up any real grades on the factory fuel system. I think before you do injectors I would recommend a turbo, the WW and WW2 are a vast improvement or the stock wheel, but you will get more air and vastly drop your egts by going with a different turbo.

I would recommned checking out kcturbo.com I purchased one of their turbos about 2 years ago and let me say, the truck is completely different, the biggest advantage is they haven't forgot about the 7.3 and they make a completely drop in ball bearing turbo for the obs, basically a GTP38R garret powermax but for the obs trucks. They actually have some now that are pretty much a reverse rotation SXE turbo for the 7.3, I got mine before the SXE so I don't have the newest technology but it made a huge difference in the way the truck tows as well as spooling A LOT faster.

So after all this rambling I would recommend that you check out the turbos from KC and consider doing some work to the exhaust to uncork that beast before you spend more money on injectors and tuning that I don't think you really need,at least not yet.
 

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Project Shamu
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Discussion Starter #13
Oh trust me, I've done all that and more, 3" DP, 4" straight pipe, T500 hpop, deleted turbo pedestal w/ deleted ebpv valve, WW2 and 360* bearing upgrade, bellowed up-pipes, FUGA E Fuel, 7/16" chromoly pushrod, built DieselSite E4OD, etc etc. I have pretty much tapped out the entire setup and the only thing left is valve springs/injectors/turbo.

I pull about 13,000lbs, and it screams doing it, I just wanna make it easier on it i guess.

Edit: I have a trip planned on Nov 9th, I think I'm going to just order a 1.0 exhaust housing, and the KC exhaust turbine and see how she does with that. Will be way nicer to get the power in the lower end.
 
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Let'er Buck!
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The absolute best towing set up that I ever had on my OBS Was nearly your exact same set up with the addition of stage one injectors. Even with the stock OBS turbo they still shine. Power was not throw you back in the seat and make you scared for your life, but it was smooth and constant.

The great part about it is that you’re not pushing enough power or pressures to require head studs, valve springs, or pushrods.

A built transmission, stage ones, Modified hpop, fuel system, supporting mods, and good tunes is all around my most favorite 7.3 set up. And that is with 35 inch tires and 410 gears.

Are you running stock California injectors or the federal 49? The most hp you can get squeezed out or the stock non-Cali injectors is maybe 300 to the wheels. When the stock injectors are worked to their max, they’ll put out more heat than a set of stage ones and all hard parts remaining the same.
 

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Project Shamu
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Discussion Starter #15
The absolute best towing set up that I ever had on my OBS Was nearly your exact same set up with the addition of stage one injectors. Even with the stock OBS turbo they still shine. Power was not throw you back in the seat and make you scared for your life, but it was smooth and constant.

The great part about it is that you’re not pushing enough power or pressures to require head studs, valve springs, or pushrods.

A built transmission, stage ones, Modified hpop, fuel system, supporting mods, and good tunes is all around my most favorite 7.3 set up. And that is with 35 inch tires and 410 gears.

Are you running stock California injectors or the federal 49? The most hp you can get squeezed out or the stock non-Cali injectors is maybe 300 to the wheels. When the stock injectors are worked to their max, they’ll put out more heat than a set of stage ones and all hard parts remaining the same.
I'm running Cali AB injectors, which by the 2.3hp per cc rule, I should be limited right around 290-300hp.

If I'm doing an injector upgrade, I feel it unnecessary to only go 30cc more, and if I'm doing injectors, I want to step up to a 238/80 or 250/100, I'm not afraid of the cost, so long as it works. Hell I'm 5x into this truck what a set of injectors/turbo/springs/studs/hpop cost lol

That's interesting how an overworked stock injector makes more heat than a bigger injector with less duty cycle %. Makes sense though, as the bigger injector can unload at a faster rate before the combustion event. Interesting.
 

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I'm not sure if you want to go down to a 1.0 housing, you may want to talk to Charlie at KC, I went down to a 1.0 when I got my turbo because I wanted a little more efficincy at lower rpm but I have the smaller federal injectors so she was a dog to spool up. I would also talk to him about a turbo opposed to just the turbine, having a bigger inducer say 66 mm will let the turbo grab more air which is why I suggested a turbo instead of parts. The newer turbine will help but if you're looking at injectors the turbo is more cost effective and I think it will help with the eggs in check. With 130 cc Cali injectors you should still have plenty of fuel left to make the power. You actually may want to look at different tuning as well.

When I pulled my swamps tuned Hydra off to put on my wife's excursion, I put her superchips box tuner on the obs and to be honest I think it has more efficient and useable power than with the custom tunes. I'm not discrediting the swamps tuning just different tunes from different tuners work better for certain trucks and situations. Your stock injectors are essentially stock super duty injectors so you have plenty over injector for what your trying to do.
 

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Let'er Buck!
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I'm running Cali AB injectors, which by the 2.3hp per cc rule, I should be limited right around 290-300hp.

If I'm doing an injector upgrade, I feel it unnecessary to only go 30cc more, and if I'm doing injectors, I want to step up to a 238/80 or 250/100, I'm not afraid of the cost, so long as it works. Hell I'm 5x into this truck what a set of injectors/turbo/springs/studs/hpop cost lol

That's interesting how an overworked stock injector makes more heat than a bigger injector with less duty cycle %. Makes sense though, as the bigger injector can unload at a faster rate before the combustion event. Interesting.

It’s hard to imagine but it’s true.

About 10 years ago when I had an 02 with all supporting mods and a van turbo (basically the obs turbo in SD trim) with stock injectors (140cc I believe) and live tuned by DP Tuner. Pulled a loaded flatbed from Montana to Kansas and it was a ridiculously hot pig pulling the big hills in Wyoming. While home I installed big Hypermax stage 2s (200cc x 100%nozzles believe) and had the truck live tuned by cale at Tyrant. Pulled a heavier load on the same trailer back to Montana and it was consistently cooler across the board. I still had to watch the egt gauge but it wasn’t a fight like before with the stock injectors.

If I was keeping a stock turbo I’d do stage 1s and roll on. You’d be surprised how it does. On my 00 that I have now, I am going to do that if I stick with a stock turbo. If I go to a t4 setup I’m going with a 364.5 and 205/30 hybrids. I’ve also heard that setup is effortless as well only with a about 50 to 75 more hp than the stock turbo and stage 1s!
 

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Project Shamu
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Discussion Starter #18
I just had a short chat with Dan at DieselSite again about his Wicked turbo, and comparing to the KC38R (which is what I was considering) they are very comparable. Both are ball bearing turbos, and both are very close in Inducer and Exducer size, but for the same price the DieselSite comes with everything to convert to SD exhaust (bellowed up-pipes, the collector with a v-band, a deleted pedestal, and high flow outlet), and it comes with a mechanical waste gate. Seems the DieselSite turbo is much better in terms of value. He spoke with Bob and they both agree it will run up to 250cc/100% injectors just fine.

So I've decided to hold off for tax season and get 250/100s, Comp 910's, Head Studs, and Wicked turbo, then I'm going to pull the motor out of the truck, clean it up, reseal the oil pan and install all the parts and put the motor back in. Should be a fun weekend project, and I already know it quite well as I've had this motor out 3 times before. A couple other things I would like to address as well, like fuel lines and some wiring.

I'm also going to step up to a twin SD fuel pump system (I already have all the parts and pumps sitting in the garage), as I'm only running a single SD pump right now. Maybe even get DI's fuel rail fittings....

So many options!
 

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white truck black smoke
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I've never had an OBS but on my 01 7.3 I had 200/100 injectors and ran the new KC dual ball bearing turbo. I had tunes from DP tuner and tow a lot in the 20-25,000 gvw range. I always ran what he called the 100hp performance tune towing even with the bigger injectors because it seemed like the turbo spooled better there but the temps were still manageable. I put 70,000 miles on that setup. The motor was a totally stock 330,000 mile when I did that and I never had any trouble with it, I ran it to 400,000 miles.
 

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I’m thinking of water injection once I get my IC installed with FFD 205/30% nozzles, pending how hot it runs. Currently have stock turbo frame, KC sx300 internals and 1.0 AR exhaust, (with exhaust wrap on up pipes). Was thinking on custom aluminum tanks for each side just behind cab fitted behind the box fender skin hung on the frame, there is lots of space there. Ive fed my DIY e fuel into back of fuel rails on the end of the heads and installed RiffRaff high flow bolts in front of heads. Also have a T500 HPOP, Hydra and supporting mods.

I think water/windshield washer fluid mix for towing would be interesting to try and have it come on under higher boost to conserve water. My understanding the snow injection type systems can use large amounts of water thus the custom tanks tucked up in fenders. Also considered retrofitting a 6.7 water to air after cooler with its own radiator, but that’s getting pretty complex for an old guy and old truck....
cheers,
j
 
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