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RightWingNut
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Discussion Starter #1
PARKERSBURG, W.Va. – The retirement nest egg of an entire generation is stashed away in this small town along the Ohio River: $2.5 trillion in IOUs from the federal government, payable to the Social Security Administration.

It's time to start cashing them in.

For more than two decades, Social Security collected more money in payroll taxes than it paid out in benefits — billions more each year.

Not anymore. This year, for the first time since the 1980s, when Congress last overhauled Social Security, the retirement program is projected to pay out more in benefits than it collects in taxes — nearly $29 billion more.

Sounds like a good time to start tapping the nest egg. Too bad the federal government already spent that money over the years on other programs, preferring to borrow from Social Security rather than foreign creditors. In return, the Treasury Department issued a stack of IOUs — in the form of Treasury bonds — which are kept in a nondescript office building just down the street from Parkersburg's municipal offices.

Now the government will have to borrow even more money, much of it abroad, to start paying back the IOUs, and the timing couldn't be worse. The government is projected to post a record $1.5 trillion budget deficit this year, followed by trillion dollar deficits for years to come.............

READ MORE HERE


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<-- it's like that
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From the article:

For more than two decades, regardless of which political party was in power, Congress has been accused of raiding the Social Security trust funds to pay for other programs, masking the size of the budget deficit.
:flipa: repubs and dems!!!
 

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Gandy Dancer
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5,972 Posts
Yup.

Raiding the kids piggy banks (or grandma & grandpa's, in this case) has been going on for a long time.

But I'm sure conservatives won't mind, since they're against anything that has the word 'social' or 'socialist' in it. ;) :poke:
 

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Yeah, it's like that
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2,419 Posts
Yup.

Raiding the kids piggy banks (or grandma & grandpa's, in this case) has been going on for a long time.

But I'm sure conservatives won't mind, since they're against anything that has the word 'social' or 'socialist' in it. ;) :poke:
Prime example of why the Gov't SHOULD HAVE ZERO, ZIP, NADA to do with health care.






















And I rest my case :popcorn:
 

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Gandy Dancer
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5,972 Posts
Not much of a case. ;)

The problem isn't the 'program,'.................it's the fact that we have come to love all of our little pet projects and have allowed them to use the money for things other than what it was intended.

And the primary reasons for that are twofold: #1...We, the voters continue to elect them. #2....Business' that are allowed to bribe politicians, through campaign donations.
 

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Yeah, it's like that
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Not much of a case. ;)

The problem isn't the 'program,'.................it's the fact that we have come to love all of our little pet projects and have allowed them to use the money for things other than what it was intended.

And the primary reasons for that are twofold: #1...We, the voters continue to elect them. #2....Business' that are allowed to bribe politicians, through campaign donations.
How is it not a case? Show me one program that the gov't hasn't abused or miss used, just one! Are you really that nieve that you don't think Guberment Health Care will follow in the foot steps of every other program the Guberment has put into place?
 

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Gandy Dancer
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5,972 Posts
The "Government" is not some omnipotent entity that is unassailable by mere mortals.

It is made up of people that you (assuming you even vote) and I, elected.

If we're going to blame anyone, we need to start with ourselves. And a big reason is, I believe, because we have let those with lots of money influence the elected.

Now, as far as giving an example of a government program that is perfect........there is no such thing.

But there is a plethora of programs that have helped people.............. who needed help.

Has there been waste and abuse? Of course there has.

Since, regardless of some ignorant people's wishes, "government" isn't ever going away...................we have to figure out how to fix it. Instead of just whining, throwing out the same old tired sound bites and advocating anarchy.

And getting rid of outside influences, is in my mind...............a good first step.


And along those lines, you should be asking yourself why the pharmaceutical and health insurance lobbies are spending so much money to convince you that health care reform, and this bill in particular, is such a bad thing.

Doesn't it even make you wonder why they are doing it?

Or, are you satisfied with the status quo of big money getting what they want from politicians?
 

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Yeah, it's like that
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2,419 Posts
The "Government" is not some omnipotent entity that is unassailable by mere mortals.

It is made up of people that you (assuming you even vote) and I, elected.

If we're going to blame anyone, we need to start with ourselves. And a big reason is, I believe, because we have let those with lots of money influence the elected.

Now, as far as giving an example of a government program that is perfect........there is no such thing.

But there is a plethora of programs that have helped people.............. who needed help.

Has there been waste and abuse? Of course there has.

Since, regardless of some ignorant people's wishes, "government" isn't ever going away...................we have to figure out how to fix it. Instead of just whining, throwing out the same old tired sound bites and advocating anarchy.

And getting rid of outside influences, is in my mind...............a good first step.


And along those lines, you should be asking yourself why the pharmaceutical and health insurance lobbies are spending so much money to convince you that health care reform, and this bill in particular, is such a bad thing.

Doesn't it even make you wonder why they are doing it?

Or, are you satisfied with the status quo of big money getting what they want from politicians?
I don't see any program here that isn't loaded with waste and abuse, maybe it's welfare? Nope not it. How about SSI? Nope not it. How about Medicare? Nope not it.

So after we have gov't health care, there won't be any knob polishing in some dark back room corner? The problem will be the gov't will hand pick a few pharmaceutical companies and those companies will be unstoppable. They won't have any competition, prices will go through the roof. Just look at airplanes, how many companies are even players any more? Why is that? You let gov't get involved and the competition just gets squashed out. The laughable part about it is they always sell it to the public that they are getting involved to promote competition, and the sheep say "oh, ok sounds like a good plan", I guess people are to dumb to look back at the past and see the future.
 

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551 Posts
The "Government" is not some omnipotent entity that is unassailable by mere mortals.

It is made up of people that you (assuming you even vote) and I, elected. Wrong. Depending on who you listen to, the Federal Government employs somewhere between 1.8 and 14.6 million people. We only elect 537 of them. 435 in the House, 100 in the Senate, and President & VP.

If we're going to blame anyone, we need to start with ourselves. And a big reason is, I believe, because we have let those with lots of money influence the elected. So we need to stop corporations, unions, media, PACs, and wealthy individuals from influencing the elected? Great. I'm ready when you are.

Now, as far as giving an example of a government program that is perfect........there is no such thing.

But there is a plethora of programs that have helped people.............. who needed help.

Has there been waste and abuse? Of course there has.

Since, regardless of some ignorant people's wishes, "government" isn't ever going away...................we have to figure out how to fix it. Instead of just whining, throwing out the same old tired sound bites and advocating anarchy. We don't need a fix, just a roll back to the Constitution. And by the way, what is it that makes people like you think they're smarter than the collective genius of the framers of our Republic? Arrogance? Lack of knowledge of world history?

And getting rid of outside influences, is in my mind...............a good first step. OK, as long as both sides get to choose who's in and who's out.


And along those lines, you should be asking yourself why the pharmaceutical and health insurance lobbies are spending so much money to convince you that health care reform, and this bill in particular, is such a bad thing. Wrong again. The drug companies are for it, not against it. They get an 80 billion dollar deal guaranteed by Federal money.

Asking why the insurance companies are against it is a stupid question. I'll explain it so even you can understand it. They don't like it for the same reason railroad companies would be against a Federal takeover. They don't want someone telling them how to run their business and determining their income and profits.
Duh. But that's OK with you. After all, "I got my paycheck...screw them."

Doesn't it even make you wonder why they are doing it?

Or, are you satisfied with the status quo of big money getting what they want from politicians?
Answer these questions. If the object is to lower health care costs to enable more people to be covered, why go after the portion of health care (insurance) that amounts to a samll fraction of the total cost? Why not go after the larger portions where much larger savings can be garnered? All aspects of health care are going up, not just insurance. Half of all health acre costs go to hospitals and doctors. Why not go after them too? At least do the smart thing and concentrate on the areas where you can get the biggest gains.

It's similar to the EPA continually increasing standards for auto emissions when cars are not the biggest offenders. Cars are now so clean that all new increases in standards are bringing in diminishing returns. In other words, a waste of time, effort and cost.

And by the way, a Corporation is not some omnipotent entity that is unassailable by mere mortals. It's made up of ordinary people with just as much right to make a living as you. Or are railroad employees the only ones that should have rights?
 

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Gandy Dancer
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5,972 Posts
Wrong. Depending on who you listen to, the Federal Government employs somewhere between 1.8 and 14.6 million people. We only elect 537 of them. 435 in the House, 100 in the Senate, and President & VP. "Somewhere between 1.8 and 14.6 million?" That's quite a spread you have there.:rolleyes: The actual number is less than 3 million federal employees (including USPS). Regardless, it's the ones we elect that are responsible for passing the laws that affect us. The others don't. ;)

I'm ready when you are. I've been "ready" for years.


We don't need a fix, just a roll back to the Constitution.We've been through this "the Constitution was perfect" argument already. It wasn't perfect.

And by the way, what is it that makes people like you think they're smarter than the collective genius of the framers of our Republic? Arrogance? Lack of knowledge of world history? I never said I was "smarter." I will say, however, that unlike the framers...........I truly believe all humans were created equal and that goes for blacks and women. They obviously didn't believe that.

OK, as long as both sides get to choose who's in and who's out. What part of "getting rid of outside influences" seems to escape you? There are no "sides." It means ALL.

Wrong again. The drug companies are for it, not against it. They get an 80 billion dollar deal guaranteed by Federal money. I should have been clearer. Yes, they did get a sweetheart deal that should have never happened and is a perfect example of what I was talking about in regards to outside influences. However, they have also threatened to oppose it vociferously because of proposed changes in protecting brand-name biotech drugs from low-cost generic competitors. Which should be in the final bill in my opinion.

Asking why the insurance companies are against it is a stupid question. I'll explain it so even you can understand it. They don't like it for the same reason railroad companies would be against a Federal takeover. They don't want someone telling them how to run their business and determining their income and profits. Duh. But that's OK with you. After all, "I got my paycheck...screw them." Speaking of "Duh".....how do you think insurance companies make their very healthy profits? Yeah, that's right. By ensuring that charges are denied/questioned, customers are dropped, premiums are raised and anything else they can do to minimize expenses and maximize income. If you haven't been in this position yet.......I hope you never are.


Answer these questions. If the object is to lower health care costs to enable more people to be covered, why go after the portion of health care (insurance) that amounts to a samll fraction of the total cost? Why not go after the larger portions where much larger savings can be garnered? "Small fraction?" What the heck are you talking about?:rolleyes:
Insurance Premiums(click here)
Many working Americans may be experiencing something akin to sticker shock. The average cost of a family policy now exceeds $13,000 a year, having doubled over the last decade, according a new survey by the Kaiser Family Foundation.

While premiums rose a relatively modest level — 5 percent — last year, they are still going up much faster than overall inflation and workers’ wages, said Drew Altman, the chief executive of the foundation.

“It’s one of the reasons why people feel the pain,” he said. By Mr. Altman’s calculation, similar increases over the next decade would translate to the average policy for a family costing in the neighborhood of $24,000 a year.




All aspects of health care are going up, not just insurance. Half of all health acre costs go to hospitals and doctors. Why not go after them too? At least do the smart thing and concentrate on the areas where you can get the biggest gains.Are you for real? Who do you think is paying the vast majority of doctors and hospital costs. Yeah, that's right.......insurance companies.


And by the way, a Corporation is not some omnipotent entity that is unassailable by mere mortals. It's made up of ordinary people with just as much right to make a living as you. Or are railroad employees the only ones that should have rights? So now you're saying that health insurance companies should have the "right" to make as much money as they want, deny people coverage and to be left alone?
 

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RightWingNut
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392 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Prime example of why the Gov't SHOULD HAVE ZERO, ZIP, NADA to do with health care.


And I rest my case :popcorn:
Social Security is the poster child example of a U.S. government run program.......

How can the delusional proponents and apologists of the current health care take over deal think we will get different results from this wasteful, inefficient, corrupt government is beyond me? We don't have to speculate on the outcome.......EVERY government run program we currently have is broke !!!

12 Trillion dollars in hole and climbing.......begging China for more money........loading more and more debt on future generations.......hey, lets start a HUGE new social program !!!

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time



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FNG
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I dont have time to dig very deep into it now. But Im willing to bet that the majority of the companies surveyed in the Kaiser study are california based:poke:

Of course premiums are going to rise there due to lack of employer contributions. Cali employers cant afford healthcare contributions anymore. Taxes are a bitch
 

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Gandy Dancer
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5,972 Posts
Social Security is the poster child example of a U.S. government run program.......

How can the delusional proponents and apologists of the current health care take over deal think we will get different results from this wasteful, inefficient, corrupt government is beyond me? We don't have to speculate on the outcome.......EVERY government run program we currently have is broke !!!

12 Trillion dollars in hole and climbing.......begging China for more money........loading more and more debt on future generations.......hey, lets start a HUGE new social program !!!

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time



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It's simply amazing at how many people are now shocked at the National Debt, who didn't care and were tongue-tied when their boy was running it up for the previous 8 years. :rolleyes:
 

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FNG
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It's simply amazing at how many people are now shocked at the National Debt, who didn't care and were tongue-tied when their boy was running it up for the previous 8 years. :rolleyes:
Maybe its because Obama's budgets and spending in one year are triple what Bush did to the debt in 8:poke: And Obama's 2010 budget deficit alone is more than what Bush spent on the entire Iraq war.

War is the only time it is acceptable to have a budget deficit
 

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Gandy Dancer
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Maybe its because Obama's budgets and spending in one year are triple what Bush did to the debt in 8.
Link? :poke:

And don't include TARP, because Bush passed that. ;)

Not to mention that you're forgetting the mess Bush left would most likely have required any new POTUS to spend and try to avoid a huge depression.
 

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FNG
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6,018 Posts
Link? :poke:

And don't include TARP, because Bush passed that. ;)

Not to mention that you're forgetting the mess Bush left would most likely have required any new POTUS to spend and try to avoid a huge depression.
No it would not have caused any new president to try Keynesian theory all over again. Only a dumbazz trys that.
 

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Gandy Dancer
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No it would not have caused any new president to try Keynesian theory all over again. Only a dumbazz trys that.
You mean that silly theory that brought us out of a national debt that exceeded 100% of our GDP after WWII and led us into the single largest expansion of wealth in the history of the human species?

I suppose the even sillier "trickle down" method is preferred?

The one that says if you make the rich richer, eventually some of the crumbs will make it to the lower classes? :poke:
 

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FNG
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