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Junior Mint
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Discussion Starter #1
Last night me and my crew were at the local Moto-X track and a guy had an old mini Ram pick up truck w/ a Hydrogen system on it. Wasn't much to it just a cylinder filled w/ water w/ some ss electrodes in it, some wires to the battery, and a solenoid hooked up to the ignition. It was pulling 4 amps he told me. He gains 30% fuel economy but this was a very small vehicle w/ probably a 70hp I4 motor so the 10 hp or so he gains off of the Hydrogen could be a significant part of his fuel economy picture. He told me that if he was really soft on the go pedal he could tell that the Hydrogen cell was keeping up but if he got on it at all he instantly used up all the hydrogen and then he was running on all gas again.

My questions are, how big of a system would one need to reliably generate say 30-40 hp? Enough to launch an unloaded F250 softly. Is that even enough to help us?

Is Hydrogen similiar to Propane when it's in the cylinder? Advanced timing and all that or will it not burn until the fuel ignites it?

Anyone doing it?

Thanks for your input!
 

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Is Hydrogen similiar to Propane when it's in the cylinder? Advanced timing and all that or will it not burn until the fuel ignites it?
Wish I had exact specs but I don't, I just recall reading through all this stuff this spring, but H and LPG burn darn near the same. Burns (flash) much quicker than diesel so timing needs changed.

As for how much to 'launch an F-250'? Well, I wouldn't get that excited. If you're talking about getting a pressure cylinder with H, like LPG, then you're good.
If you're talking about making an on board, HHO producing set-up, think "I have an 8' bed, so I might have enough space..."
:doh:
 

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Junior Mint
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Discussion Starter #4
What if we just had a little boost though? I use to have my Pane running real light (at full boost it added 42 rwhp) and it consistently improved my mpg. If H2 can be made on board removing the cost of Pane from the equation a little boost could go a long ways.

This guy's cylinder of water was about as big as a roll of paper towels and he claimed 10 hp gain. How large would we need for a 35 hp gain?
 

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< pissed off pumkin.
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We,ll hell son, I,m game. Honestly though I would try it, but you would proble have to run pane tunes so as not to explode the motor. How much preasure are we talking in the cylinder ?

Dan
 

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Suns,
Do not take this the wrong way, but I'm getting tired of saying the same things over and over again (becasue I'm mad at myself that I don't have time to follow up with this project and contribute some useful, actual data!!)

Every cell is different and unique. You might very well be able to build a cell that's small yet produces fuel to make a noticeable difference. But here's some food for thought:
From what I've read and experimented with myself, it takes a rather large cell to produce enough fuel to even make a difference on a small 5 hp B&S engine. And you can't even run that same 5 hp B&S on straight HHO at idle. Even that small motor consumes way too much volume. Only way to do it would be to take a large, thick skinned 'balloon' and use it to store up HHO gas from your generator, then you could actually start and run that 5hp B&S for several seconds. Then you need time to generate enough HHO to do that again. So your LPG tank, even though turn 'low' still has a pretty good flow coming out of it, much more than a small cell like you described is capable of producing.
You could probably run a 5hp B&S at idle with a unit the size of several 5 gallon buckets, with an optimum design, but I'm not sure. That's one project I wanted to complete, to run a small elect. generator on HHO, but for it to even idle we're talking about a large cell...

Now think of what you want to do with a motor HOW many times larger?

This guy's cylinder of water was about as big as a roll of paper towels and he claimed 10 hp gain. How large would we need for a 35 hp gain?
10hp on a very small ci motor is way different than 35 hp on a BIG ci motor, as far as volume of fuel required to produce said gains.
It plumb takes A LOT of HHO to make a difference.
But with some careful engineering and LOTS and LOTS of experimenting, I bet you could build a HHO generator that would fill a normal bed tool box, that would produce enough gas to make a 1 or 2 mpg difference at best (which would be cool in my book!!). Someday when I get caught up and have some extra time, I'll get back on the project. For now I just keep tripping over the cell I have in my shop, reminding me what I'm missing...
 

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Resident Curmudgeon
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Been reading very skeptically about the HHO generator plans they are selling.
Supposedly there is a big rig operator running a "6 pack" generator that improves his MPG by 26% average.
http://water4gas.com/trucks.htm#mozTocId669505

I might just build one to run on my 1.8L miata gas burner to see how much better i can get over the 24mpg i currently get. ( I drive it like I am running from my Ex-wife! )
 

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Now that I think about it a 5 gallon container would be a great mock up... I do have some stainless. I think I might be able to do something that could work but I don't have time...
 

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Been reading very skeptically about the HHO generator plans they are selling.
Supposedly there is a big rig operator running a "6 pack" generator that improves his MPG by 26% average.
Yeah, those plans are more to make money off of, as far as I can tell.
I've had communications with a trucker that says he sees a good improvement from a certain system, but it's for sure NOT the one you linked to. That water4gas I will call TOTAL BS on, from what I have seen first hand. Maybe a car with the proper electronics might see a difference, but a huge diesel motor that comsumes SO much CFM even at idle will never feel those 6 little jars. Period.
The guy I'm talking about has the system in (2) 4' underbody boxes and claims a savings of $1200 a month or so in fuel for his OTR truck...
 

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Junior Mint
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Discussion Starter #11
Well, I spoke to a trucker that has a system called NationalVapor.

And I'll be calling the fleet manager this week to discuss it w/ him.

It was about 50% larger than the other system (about 22" x 9" cylindrical) I saw and the driver claims he gets 35% improvement on the highway. He uses a switch to just turn it on and off while going down the highway as it has no regulator he does not use it in town at all.

Honestly, I'm as interested in getting rid of some black smoke as I am in getting the additional mpg.
 

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Production of HHO varries on the amount of amperage you are using too. I don't have any hands on experience yet but I've been researching and plan to test it on my gasser first. 4 amps wouldn't produce much gas. I'd start with 30 and work my way up from there. I've "heard" of HHO systems that produce the gas on demand by fluctuating the amount of amperage which is actuated by the gas peddle. In theory you could send as much amperage as your alternator could handle. You would want an actual fuel tank for the water if you were producing that much at once though. I'm going to start small and increase the tech as I go. Also: Don't try to store HHO unless you have a means of disposing of the oxygen first. It would make a good explosion.
 

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I have also been doing some reading on this subject and recently I came across a write up saying" Not for split shot injectors in the Powerstrokes" I know thats not a problem for Suns Or DZLJIM. But heads up for those with the crappy split shots. I dont know the validity of the statement but Im sure Jim would. I need to convert over to singles any how:doh:
 

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I see no reason why Split or Single shot would matter. :shrug:
I know plenty of guys that run LPG in Super Dutys, same thing just different...

Bignorm,
While it's true more amperage nets more HHO, to be efficient you need to use as little amps as possible. This is where good cell design and a Pulse Width Modulator comes in handy. Drops amp requirement way down for good production, so you can run even more amps for even more HHO. The PWM basically beats the water molecules apart by matching, as closely as possible, their natural vibrating harmonics.
I have a PWM I bought from a source online. Makes a huge difference in my little experiment. Has bunch of knobs/dials to make adjustments, and once you finalize a cell that you're happy with you can have a custom piece of electronics made to take place of the adjustable one.
The Kits/Cells not using a PWM are missing out, IMO...

Suns, let us know what you find!
 

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Junior Mint
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Discussion Starter #15
I see no reason why Split or Single shot would matter. :shrug:
I know plenty of guys that run LPG in Super Dutys, same thing just different...
That's the thing about the Hydrogen, it works exactly like Propane would in your diesel except it's basically free. So use it sparingly or start breaking stuff.

That is also why a small amount can offer significant improvements in mpg on a diesel.

Currently I have ADs in my truck. I don't see that as a problem. I ran Pane years ago on split shots.

Interesting about the PWM Jim. I don't really understand electronics much however. Are you saying the PWM changes the amperage coming from your specific Alternator? Are you saying that we would all need a different PW coming from our alternator based on some specific factor (i.e. volume of water, length of wires, hardness of water, amount and type of solution)?

For the record, I use to have a 7.9 gallon tank of Pane mounted under my rig and I used it on a very low setting. I picked up 42 rwhp on the dyno w/ it and I gained about 2 mpg but my tank would last 2-3K miles. A little goes a long way. I sold it because Pane costed $3.50 g and #2 was like $1.20! :doh:
 

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Are you saying the PWM changes the amperage coming from your specific Alternator? Are you saying that we would all need a different PW coming from our alternator based on some specific factor (i.e. volume of water, length of wires, hardness of water, amount and type of solution)?
Exactly! Less amps are needed when you alter the PW of the current and 'Shake' the molecules apart. ;)

I knew LPG helped mileage, but I didn't realize it was that much. Makes me want to look into it again. I'd take 2 or 3 mpg if the tank would last 1k miles. Heck maybe even less miles, it costs about the same as #2...
Problem I've run into is paying for shipping of the used tanks. Has to be treated as hazardous materials since it's been used to store LPG...
 

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Junior Mint
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Discussion Starter #17
The secret to making the Pane last a long time is to use it very sparingly. The PS2000 instructions called for a start boost of around 6-8 psi w/ the pane coming on hard. So you didn't get any help w/ mpg at low boost levels but you would suck it all up in no time while towing or traveling at high speeds.

After lots of experimentation I set my Pane up to come on almost immediatedly at 1-2 psi of boost so it was always on but to have the max amount set very low. I believe the instructions recommended 3.5-4.5 turns out and I kept mine around .5-.75 turns out from full off. W/ that setting I gained 42 rwhp and around 90 lbs of torque and the pane lasted a long time.
 

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Yeah, the guys making Hydroxy kits for small cars are seeing nice gains & they are making large multi-cell units.

For our trucks, it's gonna take a big HHO generator to net any significant gains.

I've been spending so much time in the garage, I haven't been on the computer for anything other than work. I've built 6 generators of different configerations trying to make Big amounts of hydro, And I just ordered a pile of 3/8" plexiglass, (basically bullet proof glass) because all my first generators were cracking. Some plastics get brittle. So, now I'm having a machine shop fab up a box for some serious testing, much higher amps, many plates & more Hydro. :eek:

I originally started with a Brute Force, then applied some BBoyce, now I'm working with plates that are 48" long to fit under a truck. So once I find some more time to experiment, I'll share.

At the very least, I now use hydro as a cutting torch. I always thought about plugging in a welder to a wall socket, but never a torch. At the very least, it's cool.

Next I'm installing air conditioning in my garage, I'm tired of working in the heat.

Once I learn more, I'll share what I find, for now, over an out.
 
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