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Yeah, it's like that
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Discussion Starter #1
Pick up a copy of Popular Mechanics March 2010 pages 91-93. Someone needs to write them and tell them they are wrong, they measured all their power numbers in the comparison in ft/lbs for rating on the engines. I found it odd because just the other thread was all about HP and Ft/Lbs doesn't mean squat.

















*yes I know I'm opening a can of worms and yes, I am a troll. Carry on. :poke:
 

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Yeah, it's like that
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Discussion Starter #3
So... Just because Popular Mechanics is wrong means everyone is wrong?
No, I'm saying someone needs to inform Popular Mechanics that they are wrong, I can't chew bubble gum and walk so I don't think it should come from me
 

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If you're shocked to find yourself surrounded by idiots then you must have just recently opened your eyes for the first time.

We can take a drive downtown of any major city you want and talk to as many people as you wish who can tell you how important routine narcotic use is to maintaining a well balanced life.

Hell, I'm sure we could find a bunch of people to explain all of the benefits of Heroin use as well. Maybe you'd like to subscribe to that philosophy as well.

:smirk:
 

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Yeah, it's like that
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Discussion Starter #6
Until people realize they are both measurements of energy there really isn't any point of debating it.

horse⋅pow⋅er  /ˈhɔrsˌpaʊər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [hawrs-pou-er] Show IPA
–noun 1. a foot-pound-second unit of power, equivalent to 550 foot-pounds per second, or 745.7 watts.

foot-pound  /ˈfʊtˈpaʊnd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [foot-pound] Show IPA
–noun Physics. a foot-pound-second unit of work or energy, equal to the work done by a force of one pound when its point of application moves through a distance of one foot in the direction of the force. Abbreviation: ft-lb
 

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Yeah, it's like that
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Discussion Starter #8
OK... Show me how much work you can get done with one ft/lb, and then one horsepower.
We can play these games all day long.

You have a 400 hp 500 ft/lb engine and I put 501 ft/lbs of energy against the crank in the oposite direction than the motor is turning, how many hp do you have?
 

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I know nothing...
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6,115 Posts
Ducati, I know what you're going through.

1st. No one is saying that TQ has become extinct
2nd. Torque is still an important unit of measure

The thing is "we" are wrong in that we base(d) everything onit and atributed everything to it. Its the way we learned. Something jason said really helped me get my head straight. It was something like "engineers look for the quickest/simplest way to a solution" IOW skip b-y we already know and accept they are there just not rellevant to the end result, which you know is power output. Give it a think.
 

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HRT Performance
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4,565 Posts
Until people realize they are both measurements of energy there really isn't any point of debating it.

horse⋅pow⋅er  /ˈhɔrsˌpaʊər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [hawrs-pou-er] Show IPA
–noun 1. a foot-pound-second unit of power, equivalent to 550 foot-pounds per second, or 745.7 watts.

foot-pound  /ˈfʊtˈpaʊnd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [foot-pound] Show IPA
–noun Physics. a foot-pound-second unit of work or energy, equal to the work done by a force of one pound when its point of application moves through a distance of one foot in the direction of the force. Abbreviation: ft-lb
Am I the only one that finds it entertaining that the definition of foot-pound show above is actually a foot-pound-second which is a force*distance in a length of time - IE - Power? LOL

Edit: Well - I just re-read it and it doesn't exactly say that - but its still entertaining.
 

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Yeah, it's like that
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Discussion Starter #11
Am I the only one that finds it entertaining that the definition of foot-pound show above is actually a foot-pound-second which is a force*distance in a length of time - IE - Power? LOL
No, I find it entertaining as well, they are both measurements of energy or force, how ever you want to look at it.


Back in the day when I road raced, HP was the fastest down a straight away, Torque pulled you out of a corner faster.
 

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HRT Performance
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Back in the day when I road raced, HP was the fastest down a straight away, Torque pulled you out of a corner faster.
Sorry - your still talking about power - and more specifically power band. That high HP your talking about in the straight away is HP at higher RPM band where your gearing is allowing you to open up and climb up towards your red line. That torque your talking about is HP through your lower to mid range RPMs.

Power is what matters. If you give me a power number it tells me the capability of the device that is making power. If you give me a torque number it doesn't tell me anything - unless you give it to me at an RPM - IE - POWER.
 

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I know nothing...
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No, I find it entertaining as well, they are both measurements of energy or force, how ever you want to look at it.


Back in the day when I road raced, HP was the fastest down a straight away, Torque pulled you out of a corner faster.

I always said tq gets you to 60ft hp gets you the other 1260 but its the same.

Here's the thing though the tq is only relevant until the engine starts. Once its running all that work we did with airflow, cam profile, rod angle and stroke come together to make power.
 

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HRT Performance
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No, I find it entertaining as well, they are both measurements of energy or force, how ever you want to look at it.
I wanted to expand upon this a little bit....

Power is the amount of work that can done in an alotted amount of time.

Work is a force over a distance.

Torque is a force at a distance.

Work can be done by any force over a distance - not just torque through a number of revolutions - it could be a thrust over a distance.
 

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Until people realize they are both measurements of energy there really isn't any point of debating it.
What are you referring to here that both are energy? HP and torque?

If I remember correctly, work is equal a change of energy, but torque is not work.

Torque is a moment. I can see that it is easy to say that torque is work because it has the same units as a force*distance, but it isn't. To get work from a torsional moment, it must be multiplied by and angle of rotation. I believe that is hidden in the 5252 constant in the HP(T) equation.
 

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Power isn't energy, and torque isn't energy...

Without sounding like captain obvious here... ENERGY is energy...


Aka.... power over time.... Energy.



Ducatirider apparently has a keen ability to locate all the other dipsh*ts in the world and source definitions from them. Hang on while I go interview the local crack-head so I can add his take on the debate.

:doh:




While we're at it, lets also debate this:

2 + 2 = X


Ducatirider can find droves of people to tell us that it's 2... a few that say 3 and he conveniently ignores the ones who say 4.


His take on torque and power are conceptually identical to his asking me what's the number for 911.

Seriously...
 

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PETE ENGR PSD
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973 Posts
The time units cancel out in the equation. Torque at a certain RPM is a moment/ instantaneous time. I was re-iterating what you said above. For power. Guess I kinda mixed up yours and HotRods posts lol. Oh sorry I see what you were saying breyr.. I meant at an instantaneous time, not of :doh:

Love the new avatar Chuck.
 

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BTW....

My original thread on the subject was due to the fact that a magazine, Diesel Torque, apparently couldn't figure out how things actually work and why.

So are we really supposed to be shocked that another group of journalism majors can't understand it either?
 
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