[trick76cj5]

Ok, just got the engine built that's in my sig (yes, i did all the work w/exception to the machining myself). So I have 1 2 or 3 problems, i'm not sure how related they are, but here it goes.

1) I have an oil leak from the rear of the engine. No oil in the valley, no oil coming from the oil plugs in the back of the head. Most of the oil is coming from the inspection cover in the tranny. It is engine oil. It seems to leak after running the truck, but eventually stops after the truck has been shut down. I'm guessing i leak about and ounce or a little more every time. . .it leaves a spot about the size of a dinner plate over night. I checked the h2e mounting and on the front it looks good. . .the exhaust has always been too hot to check the rear, but i'm pretty sure it's not leaking. I'm to the point that i think its an oil plug in the back of the block or the rear main leaking. Not a big deal, i'll get it fixed when i go to Brians to have the tranny retuned for the new power.

2) At start up it takes about 6 seconds to build oil pressure on my guage (the factory idiot guage). With the old motor, it would build pressure nearly instantaneously so i know it should read pressure much quicker. I had a devil of a time trying to get oil pressure to initially start the motor. I ended up packing it w/vasoline to get it to draw pressure and the truck started on the 2nd crank. The entire rebuild kit was a ford issued kit that i purchased through BWD, the entire low pressure pump was replaced with a new one.

3) After i hit the 150mile mark i started having issues starting the truck after it would sit over night. The HPO resevoir is draining out. It can sit for 8 hrs during the day and be fine, but sitting overnight creates a no start truck in the morning. The fix is dumping some oil in the resevoir to give the truck oil to start. It will start and then 6 seconds later i'll have low pressure oil too.

Here are the quick hitters i'm gonna try to trouble shoot this weekend when i have some spare time.

1) Change the oil and filter, maybe the anti-drain back valve in the filter isn't working properly.

2) Check and clean the anti drain back valve in the top of the engine to make sure debris didn't get lodged in the valve and is holding it open.

Beyond that, I'm lost. I'm wondering if one of the oil plugs in the rear of the engine isn't leaking and letting air into the system and the system to drain out as it sits. . .that's the only other solution i can come up with.

Let me know if i'm missing something, or if you have any further ideas of what could be going on with my poor truck.

Thanks in advance,
Brad



01 F250 4X4 Super Cab
6" Pro Comp Lift 315 75 16 SuperSwamper SSR's
Built 97 engine, Dynomite BD's, Swamp's Gen III, H2E, Comp 910's, BWD Pushrods, H-11 Headstuds, BTS Tranny, 5" mitre cut stacks.

[email protected] New times to come after the tranny has been updated and dyno tuned.

http://rides.webshots.com/album/556228659iylMBG

 

[bigrpowr]

rear main seal????

 

[trick76cj5]

you suggesting it's the rear main seal. . .or questioning if it's really the seal?

If it's a superficial leak like that, i don't care about it for now, i'll just have Brian and crew fix it when i have them retune the tranny. I'm just wondering if the leak may be tied to my oiling problem :shrug:

 

[bigrpowr]

yes im suggesting it.... definitely a possibility.

 

[fishinfool98]

you dont have any spare parts from the rebuild kit do you???
if so see if you accidently left something out

 

[trick76cj5]

Thanks Bigr, thats one of the things i'm really hoping for. . .very easy fix. . .once the tranny's out.

Fishin, yah, i got lots of stuff left, but they send parts for all the available combination of engines from 94.5 up. I don't have anything left that should be causing my oil leak though.

 

[smorris]

Whatever is causing your hpop to drain is the more than likely the same thing causing the engine oil pressure to be slow coming up on startup. Since it reads the engine oil pressure from the top of the hpop res, if its not full, it will have to fill up before it will show oil pressure.
Did you clean it really good? If it had some debris left, it could have been pumped through there and caused wear on the lpop on startup , till it got filtered out. Not good on all other parts either. (I'm sure you know this already.) I replaced the lpop on mine twice in 190,000 miles because of this. Not sure why it wears, but it does. I put on the melling this time. The worn pump also caused mine to have the drainback issue too. Did the same thing, crank, run e few seconds, cut off. Crank, crank, crank, oil pressure , then runs. New lpop, then its fine for another 80,000- 90,000 miles. ???? Who knows? BTW, it got worse when I did the gen 3 pump. I think the extra pumping capacity of the hpop is sucking the res empty on startup before the lpop can fill it. But the melling lpop seemed to fix it. Oil pressure does just like it did new now.

ON EDIT____I saw a little wear when replacing it, maybe .025? I was told that a couple of thousandths extra clearance is all it takes. --The new one had maybe .004 clearance. And the melling is supposed to be a higher volume pump too. It looked like a lot higher volume to me.

 

[trick76cj5]

Thanks! Good to know a worn lpop can cause drain back issues. . .i'm wondering if i got a bad lpop from ford when i got my rebuild kit. Where did you get your melling pump? What do they run?

I'm gonna change my oil filter this weekend and check the drain back valve in the top of the engine. . .if that doesn't work, i'll put in a new lpop. . .pulling the fan is just such a pain in teh @$$ I don't want to do it unnecessarily.

The motor was clean when i assembled it, so i don't think anything tore the pump up to begin with.

Thanks again for the input. . .makes me feel better about the lpop!

 

[DarkShadowDiesel]

ITP has mellings for like $69 or so. it supposedly has quite a bit more volume than a stock lpop.

 

[smorris]

Yup, thats where I got mine from. No guarantee thats it, but it sure as heck fixed mine. BTW, I got a fan clutch remover from napa for like $60 . Makes the job much easier.
Heres pics of stock vs. melling.
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2107708180101251023FuXsuR


Notice the Melling has less lobes, but they are a lot bigger. I would think that would cause less airation as it pumps.

 

[trick76cj5]

Good deal!

Well, i talked to Dave at swamps today, he said they've had a few pumps blow the front seals, so they are sending me a new pump to try to see if that helps. I also installed a check valve in the aux. line feeding the hpop resevoir to see if i can keep from draining the resevoir over night to aid in starting until i get the other issue resolved. Dave wants me to install an oil pressure guage this weekend and call him back with both cold and hot idle pressures on monday to further aide in resolving the issue.

I am planning to change the oil tomorrow. While i'm at it i'm gonna pull the anti drain back check valve on the front of the engine and see if it's stuck open w/debris. I'm also gonna pull the inspection cover and see where the leak is for sure coming from. Assuming the oil pressure comes in good, and the changes i make this weekend don't help, i'll order up the melling pump to see if that solves my issue.

The valve in the oil cooler is bothering me a bit. Is this simply a bypass around the filter in the case of a clogged filter/thick oil. .. or will this bypass excess pressure to the oil pan which would allow a drain back and hence slow build of oil pressure at start?

I will keep yall posted. . .thanks for all the input. . .and the pictures!

 

[trick76cj5]

Ok, today's updates:

Oil leak. . .it's not the main seal, it looks like i've got something running down the back of the engine and down and into the bell housing. Maybe the oil galley plug? I'll do some more searching after i get my oil pressure situation figured out.

I bought an oil pressure guage today (O'Riley special. .. set me back a whopin $8. . .it'll do till i get the guage pod and fill it w/some procomp guages). Hooked it up to the hpop resevoir. When it was hot, i had 4-8 psi at idle and couldn't hardly get it over 20 as i ran the truck. Not good! I pulled the oil filter (to change the oil) and started inspecting. There is a valve in the filter head/oil cooler that dumps oil back to the oil pan. It looks to be an overpressure relief valve. It was not seated correctly in the filter head due to crappy manufacturing. I replaced the filter head w/an extra one that was laying around that was assembled correctly. I changed the oil, refilled the coolant, and fired the truck up. Now i had 35psi at idle, but if i reved the truck the pressure would not go up. After driving the truck the oil pressure eventually returned to 6-10psi at idle and driving down the road i would build pressure to 25psi where it would flatline. It seems that replacing the filter head helped my issue, but it is not completely solved. That being said, what pressure should this truck be running at?

The drain back issue has been helped maybe a little. When the truck sat for 5-10 minutes while i returned my waste oil, the oil pressure rose quickly when i restarted the truck. But a little later, it took about 3 seconds to build pressure on the guage after sitting for 10-15 minutes.

I put a check valve in the aux. feed line to the gen III pump and that solved the oil drain back issue so the truck starts right up in the morning.

I did not have time to check the drain back valve today, i lost daylight and the mosquitos got too bad for me. I'm not sure that will solve my oil pressure issue, but may further help with the drain back. Hopefully i'll have a chance to pull and clean it tomorrow while i wait to load up the old engine.

 

[thehammer69]

Ok, today's updates:

Oil leak. . .it's not the main seal, it looks like i've got something running down the back of the engine and down and into the bell housing. Maybe the oil galley plug? I'll do some more searching after i get my oil pressure situation figured out.

I bought an oil pressure guage today (O'Riley special. .. set me back a whopin $8. . .it'll do till i get the guage pod and fill it w/some procomp guages). Hooked it up to the hpop resevoir. When it was hot, i had 4-8 psi at idle and couldn't hardly get it over 20 as i ran the truck. Not good! I pulled the oil filter (to change the oil) and started inspecting. There is a valve in the filter head/oil cooler that dumps oil back to the oil pan. It looks to be an overpressure relief valve. It was not seated correctly in the filter head due to crappy manufacturing. I replaced the filter head w/an extra one that was laying around that was assembled correctly. I changed the oil, refilled the coolant, and fired the truck up. Now i had 35psi at idle, but if i reved the truck the pressure would not go up. After driving the truck the oil pressure eventually returned to 6-10psi at idle and driving down the road i would build pressure to 25psi where it would flatline. It seems that replacing the filter head helped my issue, but it is not completely solved. That being said, what pressure should this truck be running at?

The drain back issue has been helped maybe a little. When the truck sat for 5-10 minutes while i returned my waste oil, the oil pressure rose quickly when i restarted the truck. But a little later, it took about 3 seconds to build pressure on the guage after sitting for 10-15 minutes.

I put a check valve in the aux. feed line to the gen III pump and that solved the oil drain back issue so the truck starts right up in the morning.

You really need to check your oil pressure at the rear main bearing port on the bottom rear drivers side of the engine block. Your Big oil set-up draws more oil than normal which typically causes the OP in the reservoir to run lower than what OP is in the main oil gallery.

Hammer

 

[bigblockhorse]

Front cover worn between the pump gears. The oil pressure is slow to build due to it has to refill the pickup tube that has drained as a result from the worn area. The hpop res uses a standpipe, the anitdrainback everyone calls it is not a drainback at all, rather a quickfill for the res. It wont quickfill because the pickup tube has lost its prime.

 

[trick76cj5]

Thanks Hammer. .. good to see you around and posting again! I will relocate the pickup tomorrow to see how that affects my OP.

BigBlock. . .i had the pump off when i was origionally trying to get the truck to pull a prime on the initial start. I packed it w/vasoline to get it going. I checked the mating surface and it looked ok, i didn't see any blatant visible damage. But, I'm getting really close to replacing the lpop even though this one only has 400 miles on it just to see if it maybe got messed up with the initial cranking trying to get oil pressure, so if I get that far i will take a much closer look at the mating surface. I inspected it and didn't see any visible damage, but who knows. . .maybe i got a funky one from the factory. :shrug:

Thanks for all the ideas, keep them coming and i'll continue to look into them as i continue my quest to make this a happy engine.

 

[trick76cj5]

Ok, moved the oil sender to the filter base to get a baseline of what is actually coming from the pump. Once the truck cools, i'll move it to the location suggested by hammer.

Cold idle pressure- 50psi
Hot idle pressure- 12-13psi
Cruising at around 1800rpm i'm running around 35ish psi obviously the pressure fluxuates with RPM.

The oil drain back out of the hpop had once again returned this afternoon, even w/the check valve in place.

Do those pressures sound right for the truck?

Could it be possible that i have a lpop issue that is causing the drain back. . .i really can't think of anything else that would be causing it. The squirters for the cylinder walls would be an opening for air to enter, so i can't imagine an oil leak causing the pump to loose prime every time. All i can figure is the lpop isn't sealing well enough to keep the oil in the pick up tube. :shrug:

 

[Haul_n_horses2]

Ok, moved the oil sender to the filter base to get a baseline of what is actually coming from the pump. Once the truck cools, i'll move it to the location suggested by hammer.

Cold idle pressure- 50psi
Hot idle pressure- 12-13psi
Cruising at around 1800rpm i'm running around 35ish psi obviously the pressure fluxuates with RPM.

The oil drain back out of the hpop had once again returned this afternoon, even w/the check valve in place.

Do those pressures sound right for the truck?

Could it be possible that i have a lpop issue that is causing the drain back. . .i really can't think of anything else that would be causing it. The squirters for the cylinder walls would be an opening for air to enter, so i can't imagine an oil leak causing the pump to loose prime every time. All i can figure is the lpop isn't sealing well enough to keep the oil in the pick up tube. :shrug:

My oil pressure sender is in the rear main bearing inspection port. Since going to dual HPOP, my oil pressures have been running lower. Cold idle can be in the high 40s, low 50s. However hot idle runs 17-19 psi. This is about 10-15 psi lower than when I had a single HPOP. Plan to put a Melling LPOP in the future engine. I do not completely understand why the extra oil in the HPOP should have this effect. I do not think it is loss of oil viscosity but the first oil analyses should be in tomorrow.

 

[69W900A]

There are three "check" valves in the engine. 1 is in the block, drivers side just behind the timing cover. This is a check valve that, when the engine is shut off and then cranked allows oil unfiltered directly from the LPOP to fill the HPOP reservoir and the left lifter gallery. There are two more valves in the rear oil cooler filter adapter casting. 1 is the pressure regulating valve and will dump excessive pressure to the pan. The second valve you can see with the filter removed and this is the filter bypass. If the pressure differential across the filter is too high the valve will open and bypass the filter to keep a good supply of oil to the engine and prevent the filter from blowing off the casting.

I have an aux feed to the HPOP reservoir from the oil filter adapter housing which helped a low pressure problem at high rpm. You might try something like this if you need more oil up there.

A piston cooling nozzle that has fallen off may create a LPOP low pressure complaint, but probably wouldn't have a drain back issue. You probably need to inspect the timing cover closely to see if there is excessive clearance there.

 

[trick76cj5]

The dual pumps seem to suck a lot of oil! with the truck up to hot idle (at about 12psi on my current configuration), i would have nex to no op in the resevoir. . .and at cruising speed i couldn't build more than 20psi or so, 25psi when the truck was relatively cool. . .under hard acceleration it would drop to 12-15psi. After moving the pick up to the filter head my pressure went up significantly. Remember that the pumps are positive displacement pumps, so any oil not needed to make pressure is dumped directly back to the pan and lost. 2 pumps will be more of a drain on the lpo system. . .something that before having oil issues I never even considered. So, it sounds like cold i'm on par w/you, but at hot idle i'm a little low.

I replaced the filter head w/the filter bypass/over-pressure relief valves. Both are in good shape in this housing. I know i installed the check valve in the front of the block, but there could be some debris located in there that is holding it open and i'll take a closer look at once i get a chance to work on the truck when it's cool. . .that thing gets freakin hot! I lock tite'ed the nozzle bolts when i assembled the truck, so i'm sure one of them didn't fall out, and the gen III from swamps has an auxiliary feed line that feeds directly from the main oil galley to the hpop resevoir.

I'm gonna talke w/Swamps in the morning, and then will probably order the Melling Lpop tomorrow and give that a shot. I'll double check the front cover to be sure it's not damaged.

Other than that, the only issue i can come up with is a leaky pick up tube, or a random crack in an oil galley somewhere. . .hopefully it's not the latter of the two.

I'm thinking that since i have sufficient pressure at cruise, if the lpop doesn't work, i'll just let the crew at BTS take a look at it and see if they can figure anything out.

Thanks again for all the input and help! You guys rock!

 

[smorris]

The dual pumps def. suck up some oil. As soon as I put the gen 3 on , I had issues with low pressure at idle when hot. The stock gauge would flutter when the rpm's came down. After the new melling, it stopped, and is back to normal. Mine does have some wear on the front cover, but nothing to warrant pulling the engine down for. If it gets to be a problem then I'll replace it. Hope you get it fixed.