I'm not saying I agree or disagree with these bailouts
:doh:But, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and I agree with the bail out.
Karl Marx wrote, and I quote.....But, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few
for the "good" of a few million (in your words). Is then the few million not the few and the citizens the many? Does this jive with your saying? Why or why not?Not only will GM face the same demons down the road
I also said the bail outs were the right thing to do, Do you want to argue?
I hold my nose over the whole thing, but Obama did the right thing, is that clear enough?
Yes, in this case I DOOOOO agree with the move. YESS, it sucks for the Bondholders.......They lost the bonds at the hands of the Government whom illegally interfered with and broke a private contract, you think this is OK?
A little is better than nothing. What would the bonds be worth today if the company no longer exists? Duh....
Do I agree with Eminent Domain? Hell no, but if it betters the world for all, such as an Interstate highway to be built or not to be built, or if it somehow delivers security for others, be it jobs of services, then that's the price some poor individual must pay and it will be the right move for our Govt, do you get it?.
It's the same thing with your Bond arguement.
Karl Marx wrote, and I quote.....
"from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"
First, lets fix some spelling..It's spelled in two words, "a lot", not allot.You claim to understand the bond market, thus the only conclusion is you don't care about the thousands whom lost allot illegally. Therefore ( in your eyes it seems) they are not as important as the "252,000" workers and "millions" ( I would love to see the break down of that info) of subcontractors, why? Millions of citizens will, by your own admission be minus their monies in the future: for the "good" of a few million (in your words). Is then the few million not the few and the citizens the many? Does this jive with your saying? Why or why not?
I think you just want to argue your point to death. Although I see your frustration, I have to disagree with your arguement. I'm not really feeling the need to convince you, nor do I really care about your feelings on the matter. We agree to disagree. I'll continue to buy Fords, I just bought a new Chevy for my wife, and I also bought a new Jeep Liberty for my kid. Is it OK to invest in a Chrysler product, or are they on your fail list also?
But just to help you see my point a little clearer.
GM is alive, people are still working and supporting their families. People are buying the product, and it seems the product may be pretty good..
You obviously feel that it would be a better world to let this company fail. Maybe in your own private world, but since the cost of failure doesn't affect you, your family or your life, you are really in no position to lose anything therefore can not see both points clearly, case in point here....
I have nothing to lose either, but many people arouind me have "a lot" to lose.. It's called "big picture"...
So far every one I know of that drove both bought the govmotors trucks.Did anyone notice the 0-60 times for the Dually w/ the Duramax? Motortrend claimed 7.0 seconds, and at the shootout (Pickuptrucks.com)the time was 8.3 seconds with the same axle ratios and everything. That doesn't sound right at all. I think anyone that is going to put down over 50K will drive both trucks unless they only buy one brand. If they drive both I think they will end up with a blue oval in their driveway.
Just FYI Ford credit took more government money than gmac...Are you serious? Private as in not Government owned, bailed out, etc.
There is a huge difference between PUBLICLY TRADED ( as almost all major corporations are) and PUBLICLY OWNED. LOL
BTW in Government owned ( to prevent confusion ) GM, the IPO went to bailed out banks whom then determined whom could buy stocks. Guess what? Private citizens whom bailed out GM were not among those allowed to buy stock or even given stock in exchange for use of their seized income in the form of Federal Income Tax. Only more bailed out banks, CHINA, and the UAW. China bought tons of stock in GM. hmmm
Normally the Federal Reserve (DID I MENTION I DESPISE THEM?) loans money to banks at a low rate, then said banks loan it to companies and consumers at a higher rate. In this instance the Federal Reserve loaned it directly to Ford, Honda, and other credit arms of corporations at the discounted rate for fast, cheap money. In hopes of unfreezing the credit market. I do not agree with this tactic BTW. Surprised at the number of GM trolls on here.Ford is still private. They did take a loan from the Fed, not the U.S. government. The Fed usually loans to banks first and then to the lenders, but Ford Credit, not Ford Motor took the loan from the Fed. I have my problems with the Fed even existing, but facts are facts.
I said nothing of you being a liberal, as you are not. I am ( in the classical sense, not modern). I know one when I see one, you sir definitely are not one. I did say you were a big government statist, very different. Gambling, as you called it, is the only reason we have anything today. To guarantee no failure is also to guarantee no success. The little "gamble Henry Ford took, or Thomas Edison, or even more importantly our founders. Talk about a gamble.It's easy to lump people like myself to be lumped in like some liberal, big government lover.
Truth is I started my business young, and up to a few years ago, mortgaged everything I had ever had, made every mistake I could make, and now I have 45+ people working for me. I pay taxes that seem to wipe out the profits I should be taking home. Still, I am extremely fortunate and I'm the LAST guy who you could call a liberal lover of Government.
Having said that, we live in a much more complex global marketplace, one that our founding fathers couldn't have even wildly imagined back when the Constitution was written..
We live in a Capitolistic society that allows for our freedom, as well as a small pond for sharks to prey easily on small fish.
Unions, mobsters, crooked politicians, career welfare cases, Paranha attorneys killing our health care.
It's a complex society, but it works for us and we live a life that is pretty good considering all that is wrong with unbridaled Capitolism.
Now after suffering through an economic theft of our nation's home equity from many, many angles of greed, and our nations 401K savings and borrowing power, I find it hard to let a company the size and scope of GM, AIG or any of the large scumball banks like Citibank fail. Failure, although deserved would affect the final blow to our listing ship of an economy. Consider that..
In a perfect world of Capitolism, they should fail, and let the pieces fall and rebuild where they may. But, what if the economic impact is too great, which I believe would have been enough to push our house of cards off the table.
Sorry, but I don't see this as a chance I would have taken.
I like my lifestyle. I want to preserve it without having to see everyone around my lose their jobs. I provide a service, and my customers have the ability to pay. I like that..
Knowing our tax system, and our Governments penchant for "taking", I'm providing my own security and personal retirement, and not depending on my 401K for anything other than casual spending money when I'm ready move south to enjoy the sun..
You are willing to gamble, I am not. I have much to lose, how about you?
I will support GM for what it is, and that's a "vehicle" that keeps people employed and spending money at my business, and in your community as well.
In closing, what I would like to see are the thieves behind bars. At least Bernie Madoff is getting a little share of hell on Earth before he actually checks in.
Iirc the chevy did stop faster than the ford as well as getting it's self moving faster. I know the exhaust brake outperforms the Ford by a large margin which is a major factor when towing heavy. Like it or not Gov Motors is stealing Fords show.
Umm, not really, in fact they "GM" are either very close, or outright lead Ford in total sales..Not in sales not at all. Gov motors has a long way to go.