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Discussion Starter #1
Just an idea for some friendly discussion. Have the worlds most reliable diesels already been built? Posted on another site not many opinions.

With all the DPF, EGR, urethra, increasingly complicated electronic diesel injection systems and diesel emissions etc., are the most reliable diesel pickup engine's heyday already behind us?

A few motors that come to mind for reliability in stock form are the 12v CTD and the 7.3 International.

Please discuss.
 

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A Ghost these days...
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Don't forget the 4bt Cummings that come in some mini excavators and 'small' heavy equipment.
 

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Super Hauler!
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just wait and see whats still running in another 20 years.

I think the 12v and the 7.3 DI are probably the best put there yet as far as dependability and towing power, thats all care about. They are real easy to work on and you dont have to have a rocket degree to diagnose a issue. I will never get rid of my 7.3's for nothing.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I think the 12v and the 7.3 DI are probably the best put there yet as far as dependability and towing power, thats all care about. They are real easy to work on and you dont have to have a rocket degree to diagnose a issue. I will never get rid of my 7.3's for nothing.
Yep I was very happy with the way my 7.3 did going from San Diego to Cleveland with about 8k trailer. Havent made the same trip with the Dodge but I can only assume it will be just as easy.
 

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Funny me and a guy just had this conversation today at my shop the simple answer is yes.... The days of buying a diesel pickup at a reasonable cost and it actually getting better mpgs then another truck w/o having to dump thousands more into it to get the mpgs up and the "average joe" being able to work on it in his garage and save himself some money when it breaks down unfortunately are over. I think that some of the new motors will prove out to be reliable but much more costly to maintain and operate then some of the diesels before. Mainly the 7.3s and 12vs in pickups. Just my .02
 

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The nature of this thread is why I roll an IDI.. its replacement will be a DT 360 or a NH 6.6...

8 injectors for $250, fresh rebuilt... 3 wires to run...

Sure, it has the half the hp/tq #'s of a Scorpion after I turbo and intercool it... but... it'll move me and mine just fine.
 

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Well, duh, the most reliable diesels have already been built. How the heck are we going to know if the new motors will out do the old ones as far as reliability when they don't have the time on them or have barely been on the market.

Obviously the 6.0 stands out as having problems. The 6.4's are starting to have stuff pop up, and there were some things when they came out. But I've also seen personally and we all read about plenty that have no issues at all.

One big thing I see is the two engines mentioned as very reliable were in production much much longer. The 7.3 was in production from 88 to 03, that's 15 years and millions and millions of motors. So when you compare it to a 6.0 or 6.4 that was in production for 3-4 years, it doesn't seem like apples to apples. You can say, well the percentages of bad motors show the 7.3 was better. But again you are comparing far fewer units. If the 6.0 was in production for 15 years I bet some stuff would have been figured out and improved and the percentages would have gone down, and helped equalize it out with the 7.3. There were changes that occurred in the production of the 7.3 to help improve it.

Obviously when more stuff is being added to these motors there is more to go wrong with them, we all know that. But that doesn't always mean that it will go wrong, or that it is a bad thing. One thing sticking out in my mind is old cars with points for ignition, I'm not sure I've heard many people complain about that change, but I'm sure at the time people were speculative just like we are now. Carb's vs fuel injection. More complicated system but after some time it seems to work pretty good.

As far as the days of being able to work on your own vehicle in your garage on the weekend being gone. Again I'm sure everybody #### a brick when the Power Stroke addition was made to the 7.3, thinking oh hell I can't work on that, it's too complicated. There are too many people like us who enjoy working on our own stuff, and in the future it will continue, it just may mean that people will have to buy computer software and do a little more work of that nature before getting dirty.
 

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reliable or not, the new diesel are far too complex for any average person to repair and or diagnose. sure they get better economy, but when it comes to repairs or even maintenance your most likely taking it to a dealer. just my .02
 

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Super Hauler!
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Well, duh, the most reliable diesels have already been built. How the heck are we going to know if the new motors will out do the old ones as far as reliability when they don't have the time on them or have barely been on the market.

Obviously the 6.0 stands out as having problems. The 6.4's are starting to have stuff pop up, and there were some things when they came out. But I've also seen personally and we all read about plenty that have no issues at all.

One big thing I see is the two engines mentioned as very reliable were in production much much longer. The 7.3 was in production from 88 to 03, that's 15 years and millions and millions of motors. So when you compare it to a 6.0 or 6.4 that was in production for 3-4 years, it doesn't seem like apples to apples. You can say, well the percentages of bad motors show the 7.3 was better. But again you are comparing far fewer units. If the 6.0 was in production for 15 years I bet some stuff would have been figured out and improved and the percentages would have gone down, and helped equalize it out with the 7.3. There were changes that occurred in the production of the 7.3 to help improve it.

Obviously when more stuff is being added to these motors there is more to go wrong with them, we all know that. But that doesn't always mean that it will go wrong, or that it is a bad thing. One thing sticking out in my mind is old cars with points for ignition, I'm not sure I've heard many people complain about that change, but I'm sure at the time people were speculative just like we are now. Carb's vs fuel injection. More complicated system but after some time it seems to work pretty good.

As far as the days of being able to work on your own vehicle in your garage on the weekend being gone. Again I'm sure everybody #### a brick when the Power Stroke addition was made to the 7.3, thinking oh hell I can't work on that, it's too complicated. There are too many people like us who enjoy working on our own stuff, and in the future it will continue, it just may mean that people will have to buy computer software and do a little more work of that nature before getting dirty.
True but the IDI and the DI 7.3 are 2 different species in the long run, the DI was out for 9 years they dont have the egr issue like 6.0 and 6.4 and the urea is just dumb. There is less to go wrong on a simple motor. A monkey and a wrench could go to town on a 7.3 and maybe a 6.0 but the 6.4's and 6.7 the monkey wouldnt have a chance under there. I find simple motors are more user friendly for most people. The reason they didnt change the 7.3 is because they were reliable. What did they change over 9 years other than hpop and turbo in 1999?
 

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True but the IDI and the DI 7.3 are 2 different species in the long run, the DI was out for 9 years they dont have the egr issue like 6.0 and 6.4 and the urea is just dumb. There is less to go wrong on a simple motor. A monkey and a wrench could go to town on a 7.3 and maybe a 6.0 but the 6.4's and 6.7 the monkey wouldnt have a chance under there. I find simple motors are more user friendly for most people. The reason they didnt change the 7.3 is because they were reliable. What did they change over 9 years other than hpop and turbo in 1999?
Not much changed, I agree with that, but there were a few little things like you mentioned, HPOP, turbo, fuel deliver (mechanical vs electric), there were small differences in the HPOP and IPR on the early (95) power strokes compared to later, intercooler, there could be more that I don't know of, and most of those were just performance enhancements, not reliability. In my opinion the 7.3 is more reliable which is why I own one, I'm just trying to argue a bit.

I'm not the brightest bulb in the box, and I can work on my 7.3 easy, but there is still a ton that I don't know, there are plenty of people on here that know a lot about them, and all of that comes from time spent with it. What I'm thinking of is along the lines of we can probably name of the size of bolts and what tools you will need, and walk someone through a repair on a 7.3 over the phone. There are guys on here that are getting that way with the 6.4 too, but they have only had 2-3 years with it where as we have had more time and more people that have done it before us to help us. I've worked on a 6.4 we have on the ranch a few times and spent some time trying to just figure it all out, and it begins to make sense. You spend more time figuring it out and you would be at the point we are with the 7.3. There is more electronics and this and that, but the equipment will become more available to work with that. AE has given people a huge advantage with the 7.3, and similar stuff will have it's place with the new motors.

But I still have to agree the simpler the better. The 7.3 is simple to me, just like old cars. You have your parts and they do this pretty much. But in 10 years people will probably be looking at the 6.4's saying the same thing, and they will be complaining about the new stuff coming out being too complicated. Vehicles progress and so does our knowledge about the new technology. But the 7.3 is still the best. :D
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Not much changed, I agree with that, but there were a few little things like you mentioned, HPOP, turbo, fuel deliver (mechanical vs electric), there were small differences in the HPOP and IPR on the early (95) power strokes compared to later, intercooler, there could be more that I don't know of, and most of those were just performance enhancements, not reliability. In my opinion the 7.3 is more reliable which is why I own one, I'm just trying to argue a bit.

I'm not the brightest bulb in the box, and I can work on my 7.3 easy, but there is still a ton that I don't know, there are plenty of people on here that know a lot about them, and all of that comes from time spent with it. What I'm thinking of is along the lines of we can probably name of the size of bolts and what tools you will need, and walk someone through a repair on a 7.3 over the phone. There are guys on here that are getting that way with the 6.4 too, but they have only had 2-3 years with it where as we have had more time and more people that have done it before us to help us. I've worked on a 6.4 we have on the ranch a few times and spent some time trying to just figure it all out, and it begins to make sense. You spend more time figuring it out and you would be at the point we are with the 7.3. There is more electronics and this and that, but the equipment will become more available to work with that. AE has given people a huge advantage with the 7.3, and similar stuff will have it's place with the new motors.

But I still have to agree the simpler the better. The 7.3 is simple to me, just like old cars. You have your parts and they do this pretty much. But in 10 years people will probably be looking at the 6.4's saying the same thing, and they will be complaining about the new stuff coming out being too complicated. Vehicles progress and so does our knowledge about the new technology. But the 7.3 is still the best. :D
Your ability to work on a truck has little or nothing to do with its reliability.
Just so you know the reason guys aren't working on 6.4 in there garage is because they have no way to lift the cab off it to change hard parts on a motor.

I dont know that we will ever see a 1million mile common rail /EGR equipped diesel motor, that hasn't had had to be wrenched on hard. Perhaps a 6.4 or 6.0 manufactured for export outside CONUS, would be able to achieve this?

Fuel economy has went down too, more than likely due to increased vehicle weight and of course regen.
 

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Junior Mint
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Those 6.4s seem to be pretty reliable.

Anyways, I can assure you that the heavy duty trucks that I sell have gotten more unreliable over the last decade primarily due to the EPA gizzmos.
 

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Super Hauler!
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Your ability to work on a truck has little or nothing to do with its reliability.
Just so you know the reason guys aren't working on 6.4 in there garage is because they have no way to lift the cab off it to change hard parts on a motor.

I dont know that we will ever see a 1million mile common rail /EGR equipped diesel motor, that hasn't had had to be wrenched on hard. Perhaps a 6.4 or 6.0 manufactured for export outside CONUS, would be able to achieve this?

Fuel economy has went down too, more than likely due to increased vehicle weight and of course regen.

Simple is reliable, look at the 12 valve and the 7.3 pretty simple engines and pretty simple to work on, not very complex everything is straight forward.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I see what your saying but I would argue that a Bosch P7100 that pumps fuel in most 12 valves is not simple. Very few people can disassemble and assemble correctly, there inner workings are complex and specific. Yet they are ungodly reliable. I truly believe it is there lack of electronics and not being made to cater to any specific emissions law is what allows it to function so reliably. I could be wrong though.
 

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I see what your saying but I would argue that a Bosch P7100 that pumps fuel in most 12 valves is not simple. Very few people can disassemble and assemble correctly, there inner workings are complex and specific. Yet they are ungodly reliable. I truly believe it is there lack of electronics and not being made to cater to any specific emissions law is what allows it to function so reliably. I could be wrong though.

I agree, but with more and more parts you throw into a already cramped area there is bound to be more parts that fail, and more issue that arise. The egr cooler, dpf and now urea is more things that can and do go wrong. I like simple things, they are easier to diagnose and easier to fix should something go wrong, shoot even a HPOP on a early 2003 you have to pull the turbo without busting the heads of the bolts off because they are on sideways and get to the damn thing. Is things like that that i hate, having to pull 10 other PITA parts to get to a simple part. Rant over!
 

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Junior Mint
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Not only does that stuff break but it wears out other parts as well.

The old pumps might be complicated but that is the only complicated part on the entire engine. These new motors have multiple complicated subsystems.

EPA should have regulated mpg's and nothing more. Diesels got 22 mpg all day long back in the day. They could have regulated 30 mpg and think how much oil exploration and the envir impact of that they would have decreased. Less heavy metals in the catalysts in the enviro. Less broken down trucks on hooks and wasted trips to the dealers. Less worn out engines so less manufacturing of parts. They could have done so much better but then the SD would likely never have been born.
 

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oil burner
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the 7.3L holds value,even with 200k miles on one you can expect to pay a decent amount of cash and thats because they last,in my opinion the 7.3L was the best electronicaly controlled diesel made to date(for a pick up truck).from all ive read or heard about the newer engines it seems the good stories are far outnumbered by bad ones.but like i said before wait 20 years and well see the hard facts.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
These are all good points.
 
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