[Charles]

Well, I had to buy another Master/Slave today because it didn't want to go into gear easily. After about 10 or so of them, I've had enough. Begging this thing to stop eating the plastic clutch components got old over 6 years ago.

That and the complete inability to make any decent effort at the track without A) Running a single disc that actually drives well, and shifts fast daily (without hosing tranny syncros and input shaft bearings) but is a total whore in even an attempt at launching with 1000+ft/lbs trying to rip it apart at the first hint at chattering. Or B) Running a dual disc, and listening to it destroying your input shaft bearings everyday in traffic, rebuilding the tranny about every year cause it's toast and just generally getting resistance everytime you want to bang the next gear, but not literally BANG the next gear like the dual disc would.

You either drive a manual tranny like a grandpa and it lives a long life (as I have since putting in the new one, [3.04 sec 60' ]) or you drive like you want, and replace sycros and feel it about to drop another syncro about every other oilchange.

So I am going to go ahead and go with a 4R100 full manual with joystick control over shifting.

Full Manual Auto.

I started this thread to see if anyone had any good ideas about manual shifting the 4R100, as well as for anyone who might have questions about swapping either from manual to auto, or auto to manual as I have done a good bit of looking into this in years past, and many will have good insight into some other aspects I'm sure.

This goes for you purely auto guys too. You don't have to let the PCM do the shifting you know. You can joystick shift it when you want, then click it to full auto mode, and sit back and sip coffee like you do now and it will bang the gears for you just like normal.







And if anyone is interested, it is likely that I will soon have this to get rid of:

Flywheel, Brand new ceramic clutch in box (good to 1000+ft/lbs), Brand new Master/Slave in box, Complete Clutch Pedal assembly, Gearstick with knob, Gearstick rubber boot with screws, BD short throw shifter (if you want it) AWA3 PCM and a parts Chassis harness for manual tranny trucks (I say parts because I had to replace the fusable links with standard fuses long ago). Still works fine, but it isn't "stock". And of course a ZF6 speed manual tranny that I bought brand new (not reman) that now has 60-70k miles on it.

$2000 takes it. I just need the funds for the 4R100 core and the Stand-alone Tranny controller.

 

[Tom S]

Looks out Charlie wants to turn some heads at the track. I say cool.

Tom

 

[HeeHaw]

how much does a stand alone tranny controller run?

 

[Charles]

7 or 800 if they're the same as they were a few years ago when I first priced it.

150 for the 4R100 harness, so probably 900 total. Then get a joystick or paddles (stupid on a truck IMO) and you've damn near got it.


http://www.powertraincontrolsolutions.com/content-4.html

That's the one I'm going with. Turns out its 850 with harness.

 

[gregrob]

7 or 800 if they're the same as they were a few years ago when I first priced it.

150 for the 4R100 harness, so probably 900 total. Then get a joystick or paddles (stupid on a truck IMO) and you've damn near got it.


http://www.powertraincontrolsolutions.com/content-4.html

That's the one I'm going with. Turns out its 850 with harness.

Wonder if the're EVER gonna finish the 5R110 controller.
I would love to have that trans in my truck. :redspotdance:

 

[Charles]

Bolt Pattern?

 

[gregrob]

Adapter?

 

[thetonka]

Sounds like a cool project. When I got my truck I searched for the manual because of the cost associated with building an auto that would last. Times have changed and I now know of John Wood who is only a couple hours away. A manual shift auto would be really cool, gotta keep an eye on this thread.

As an aside mine shifts tough to, what are you saying about the master/slave? Is this just a high hp problem or a crappy stock Ford parts problem? Is there a thread on this so I don't fill up your thread with dis
tractions?

 

[Charles]

No, it's an OEM plastic pos system problem. I have tried everything short of a complete redesign using wilwood parts or similar.

FWIW, the chevy ZF6 does NOT use plastic parts on the hydraulics.

And no, a properly done ZF6 does not shift at all even remotely hard. If it doesn't shift like silk it's screwed up. 90% of them are, and nobody is the wiser to the fact that the OEM valeo clutch diaphram and the OEM pos plastic throwout assembly is JUNK!

Mine engages about one inch from the top. That took about 3 years worth of working with my clutch guy to accomplish. And you CANNOT run even ONE psi more plate load, as the damn junk isn't even strong enough for the STOCK plate load.......

Can you tell how unimpressed and frustrated I am about the pos stock clutch setup? If not for that, I'd run a manual tranny without issue. I could increase the plate load and run a single disc clutch without issue. But at stock plate load, even with only 3 ceramic pucks per side 1100ft/lbs is ALLLL I can get out of this clutch. And you'd better not let it start to slip or it's off to the races with rpm to redline in .0002 ms and you've got a smoky pile of smoldering sh#t for a clutch. Sub 900ft/lbs it's gravy with a good clutch. Anything more and no clutch material on the planet is going to durably hold at such dismal plate load. Try and bump it up even a little.....and POOF, there went the worthless master/slave again.

It's hideous.

 

[thetonka]

Don't sugar coated tell me how you really feel. oke:

Mine is tough to get into gear, especially when loaded. I figured it needed adjusting, anywhere I can go to find some good info on how to adjust it properly? Did you look at using Wilwood parts, or was it even worth it?

I like the idea of a manual shift auto. With the BUILT autos how well do they hold compared to a manual? I really stayed away from the auto because of the reliability issues I read of and the cost of building one that would last. Didn't know the hydraulics were crap.

 

[Charles]

ADJUST IT.......

LMAAAAASSSSSSSOFF

uh..hummm.....there is NO adjustment anywhere on the plastic pos.

Just add that to the list of reasons why it's such a steamy pos.

I have made my own pushrods that are longer, but ah, that only takes the average life expectancy from 6 months to one year down to 2 months......

Sorry, no adjustment possible.

 

[thetonka]

So what about retrofitting the parts from a better zf6 setup.

 

[Doodie]

I have a spare PCM and Jeff has plenty of spare 4R100 cases.

I like toggle switches........haha

 

[Charles]

I might get with him for one of those cases. But as for the PCM, my engine and my tranny will have a Berlin wall of a communications block between the two. As far as my engine will know, my truck's still a manual once this is done.

No talking between the two allowed.

 

[smorris]

Why not just machine one out of billet aluminum. The wilwood stuff is ok, but nothing special. Shouldnt be too hard, just tear apart the stocker, and copy. Maybe if it works good, take it back out and get it hard anodized, too last longer. I got the wilwood stuff on my bronco II and it works pretty good, but even thats not coated or anything. I'm on the second slave cyl on it, cause of wear. (external, easy to change) With your fab. skills , it should be pie.

 

[Charles]

Cause if I'm fabbing something, it's not going to be toward a manual transmission.

Pros of the manual:

Total control over shift firmness, shift timing, and shiftpoints. Cheap. Tough........ Did I mention cheap?

Cons of the manual:

You physically have to 100% disengage ALL applied engine torque in order to shift every time. It is physically impossible for it to be in two gears for any period of overlap. So you shock the suspension and driveline with backlash on every single shift and lose a good bit of boost on every single shift if you're quick. Otherwise it's a total loss. If you want to enjoy it, say while burning the tires off in first make a full throttle shift to second. You Can but how many times before second starts getting a little clicky going in? It's just not a long-term durable situation.

Pros of the auto:

It has a TORQUE CONVERTER that lets you apply full engine power without SMOKING a clutch trying to launch. Even without standing on the converter and building boost, you just nail it, and you're off. No clutch to worry about. Keep off the converter at the line and they will last just fine. Shift at full powrer, full boost. Shift while 3/4 sideways in the intersection making a left, rolling the wheel and catching 3rd gear laying posis 200 feet down road without any bs from a syncro.

Cons of the auto:

It shifts when it wants. Can't ever be right. Say you're on the interstate and you just want to lug it in OD at FULL POWER. If you set it to not shift down, sure you can do it. Now what about when you desperately need to get over and there's a prick in a maxima on your 3? Now the pos still woln't shift down. It can't read your mind, so it can never be right. You have to straddle the fence and change YOUR driving style (throttle) to keep it appeased. UNACCEPTABLE, and why I have always driven a manual tranny vehicle to date.


Now, lets take the total control over shifting and shift firmness (multiple settings that you program) combined with the direct shift input from the joystick and combine it with the full throttle shifting at full boost and the torque converter (with lock) to allow full throttle launches without smoking anything, just heating some fluid (keep it sane).

Now the only pro not captured between these two is the cheapness of the manual.

I can live with that at this point.

 

[THEDIESELMAN]

Yeah I hate when you want the auto to stay in od and then it downshifts then when you want it to downshift it doesn't so I have to manually have do it.

 

[bean]

I know it wont work for what you want charles but I am goin to a triple disc with a 3250# cover and will hold whatever I want and keep the hydros alive as well. Peter said I could get alot of pulls in with that setup and still have good street manners.

now just gotta figure out how to stuff it all in under that bell housing.

 

[smorris]

Oh, I wont argue that the auto is the one to have. A full manual valve body is a wonderful thing. It shifts when you say, every time, and stays where you put it. I can tell you too, they are tough. Before I went to a np435 in the little bronco, I had a c-6 full manual, with a b&m megashifter. When I finally took it out because of some issues, it was making some weird noises. The fluid looked like some of that elmers glue with glitter in it, the front pump nose was sheared off, but it still shifted! Are you saying theres a way to have full manual shifting, and still have the option for automatic? Is this a add on, or just a valve body mod?

 

[THEDIESELMAN]

Yep a full manual auto trans is great I have one in my lifted 69 GMC I wouldn't have it any other way in that rig.