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Discussion Starter #1
is it possible to make intake air temps too cold. i ask cuz a water to air cooler will make them X*. dont know the num. me and a friend who works in refridgeration came up with a idea. we have gotten air to flow through our setup that is about -256*, yes that said negative two hundred and fifty six degrees. what will that do to the aluminum spider, or the silicon boots? And is it actually too cold? if so, what would be the coldest air you could use goin into the motor. would that cold quench the combustion? what are the for-seeable issues with that cold? i have always been under the impression that colder is better, i think we just got it too cold :D we were experimenting on how cold max we could get them in a setup that would fit under the hood of a truck. now i just need to know how much smaller i need to make it.
 

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Plays with Motors
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Yes - we tested out a cage in front of the intercooler that had dry ice in it one night at the pulls, the truck just started popping and missing at speed both runs. Took the dry ice out and everything was fine.

Not extensive tests obviously, but seemed to be pretty obvious that it caused the problem.
 

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My under standing is a temparture of 65-70* is ideal with as dense a charge as you can get. The reason why cooler air is better is it is more dense than the same area of warmer air.



Thats what i understand.....:poke: But on the other side if you ever any chill a girl out to snuggly up to you, that would do the trick for AC.;)
 

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Yes - we tested out a cage in front of the intercooler that had dry ice in it one night at the pulls, the truck just started popping and missing at speed both runs. Took the dry ice out and everything was fine.

Not extensive tests obviously, but seemed to be pretty obvious that it caused the problem.
Does that sound like running lean? I wonder if that cold of air temp puts it below what the computor can adjust fueling for or if additional tuning for more fuel would help?
 

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the running lean is a possibility- if the pcm didnt see the cold air it wouldn't compensate fuel for it. as far as too cold, once you get ambients below about 60* your fuel economy starts to drop- tells me that the engine isn't as effecient. but I know that snowmobiles jetted correctly run better as temps drop but is that because they were jetted safe and not perfect at warmer temps? lots of questions. I'd think you have to have iat after any extreme cooling effort.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Does that sound like running lean? I wonder if that cold of air temp puts it below what the computor can adjust fueling for or if additional tuning for more fuel would help?
now see, thats kinda the idea i had, that a tuner could tune for it, cuz anything that cold i would think would need special tuning. it would be way out of normal operating conditions, therefore the comp woudnt programmed to compensate for it
 

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Junior Mint
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Diesels don't have jetting but they do need to run at stoich which really means nozzle tip geometry needs to be appropriate to assure a correct localized ratio in the combustion chamber which then leads to correct flame propogation. If you have a localized too lean area (example too many small nozzle holes with really high injection pressure) the flame will not propogate well and you should see some grey smoke and poor power production.

Generally if you had a hugely O2 rich environment you would need more fuel but also larger streams of it. As in larger nozzles. But nozzle tip geometry is a very complicated subject so don't go off and burn some 800%ers just because I threw that out there!

I don't know how much of this incredibly cold air that the OP is capable of producing but you can do some turbo efficiency calculations and quickly find that a full throttle blast would still have your intake air temps approaching 200 degrees above zero. That should make a lot more power and should run just fine.

Also really cold air can just quench the combustion chamber temps. I mean it takes some very high temps combined w/ compression to ignite that diesel fuel. We all have heard, smelled, and seen how a diesel runs on a very cold morning as that fuel can not burn until the engine gets up to temp because the metal steals the heat that the compression creates.

If you could have your air cooling system running full time but lightly then quickly ramp up as boost increases that would be hard to beat. Make sure the engine intake temp sensor is seeing your temp increases and that your programmer is using it for reference. What volume or air can you produce at these temps? I don't see how it could really be a significant amount (at a reasonable hp cost) compared to what a diesel engine takes in at full boost so your actual temp decrease might be way less.
 

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If you could have your air cooling system running full time but lightly then quickly ramp up as boost increases that would be hard to beat. .
There is an interesting thought. Have it metered linear to boost just like nitrous?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
we made a casing around the intercooler tube, after intercooler, before the intake. we assumed that after the intercooler, after heat from turbo and the heat you get when it compresses the air, that the air goin into our setup would be about 200*. it simply was a easy to use round number. my friend working in refridgeration he has some really nice testing stuff. we flowed 600 cfm @ 25psi @ 200* through the setup. out the otherside it was -256*. i honestly didnt think it was possible. he said o hell yes, watch this, come see me in a couple days. and he did it. is why i ask what is actually to cold. now, your tellin me that a straight rate of -256* is simply to much, thats fine, is what im trying to learn. but if i meter it based off of boost, similar to nos, now im getting somewhere. this is not nos. im trying to learn some general limits so when i put this on my truck, it at least runs, then i can fine tune. ex. how much of the cold air do i want when and tweak it till it works for me
 

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Discussion Starter #12
.....What volume or air can you produce at these temps? I don't see how it could really be a significant amount ......
if the turbo can push the air, i can make that amount of -256* air, allowing the into the setup air is 200*. actual temps will vary cuz its not actually on a truck with actual pre and post intake air temps. but if the turbo can create the air, i can make it friggin cold. just trying to figure out how to safely get it into the motor with out literally freezing chit, and putting the fire out
 

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:popcorn:
 

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seriously, this needs to be moved so charles can chime in, Airsley, can you move this please? I'd love to see what charles thinks. and I still say the pcm needs to know where the temp is or at least have the tuner ask for more fuel
 

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peterbilt'in
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IMO, -265 would be way to cold. remember how diesels work.. they need heat.

now if you could regulate the intake air to a nippy 0*, and test it to see how it reacts. i know in the winter it takes a while to get the truck warm but it defiantly has more power once it's at op. temp getting the cold air.

need some pictures of this refrigeration device :)
 

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I would think even getting it down to 100 would make a huge HUGE difference and not have a significant parasitic draw. So 0* without a significant draw would seem like an awesome idea.
 

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you want some of this?
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I believe it would take a freakin HUGE refrig system to get anywhere near that cold, unless your using some real nasty refrigerant, like some of the stuff they use at work for making LNG (liquid natural gas). And I would NOT want that stuff under my hood. I see no way you can use typical freon and have enough there to keep it cool. It would definately help, with any temp drop you can get, but tha amount of air these things use, and the temps they are at??
Anythings possible, but using NOS as was already said, drops those temps a buttload, and I dont see how your gonna come close to getting as much drop in temp with any ac system. TOO cold?? Dont see how. At idle maybe, but at full load, WOT? I would doubt it. The intake air at full boost is really high as was already said.
Unless you got it cold enough to drop cylinder temps to the point that it wouldnt light off. Or possible, if the humidity was high enough it could cause the liquids to drop out and cause issues with a freeze up. Again, not likely.
 
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