Injectors comparasion
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Larger nozzles- By installing larger nozzles you are makeing the nozzles less restrictive so that more fuel will flow out of them with everything else being the same. Stock injectors with stock programming and larger nozzles will get more fuel out and make more power. Stock injectors only modified to have more fuel capacity with stock nozzles and stock programing will run exactly like stock injectors. In this case the only way to get more fuel out is with a chip to extend the open time of the injector and/or increase the Injection Control Pressure (ICP) to push more fuel out the nozzle. On the same note if you say make a hybrid (installing a larger 7mm plunger and barrel out of a DT466/I530E injector) and leaving the intensifier piston the same will effectively reduce your injection pressure. This less injection pressure will make less pressure at the nozzle and will actually flow less fuel with a stock nozzle than a bone stock injector. So to get the fuel out without a chip you would need larger nozzles.
There is also a point where the stock nozzle just wont flow enough fuel to get the desired amount out in a realisitic time frame. That's why high capacity injectors require larger nozzles to use that capacity.
Codes- All powerstroke and T444Es come with A code injectors. A code injectors have a 6.0mm plunger and a 16mm intensifier piston. What this does is multiply the ICP so that injection pressure is adiquate but not having to have huge amounts of ICP like say in the 20,000 psi range. This difference give you approximately a 7:1 difference and therefore increases your injection pressure 7 psi for every 1 psi of ICP.
All DT466s and I530E injectors are B codes. Of those some DT466s and all I530Es have a 7.1mm plunger, hense more fuel per mm of stroke, with a 17.5mm intensifier piston. This gives you approximately a 6:1 ratio. So no it will not have quite as high of ICP as as the A codes but it's not as bad as it could be. However due to the larger intensifier piston they reqire much more high pressure oil to make the piston stroke the same distance. This is why you need a high pressure oil system with a higher capacity.
Hybrid injectors are taking the 7.1mm plunger and barrel out of a BD code I530E injector and installing it into an A code injector with a 16mm intensifier piston. As you could imagine the down fall is that the injection ratio is dropped to approximatly 5:1 further decreasing injection pressure. However with the smaller intensifier piston it requires no more oil than an equivilant A code yet it flows the same amount of fuel as a B code. The result is much more fuel capacity without the need for more high pressure oil volume.
A codes and B codes can be further broken down as well.
A and AA injectors came in the '94-'97 non-california trucks. They are all 90cc injectors and are single shots.
AB injectors came in the '97 cali, and all early '99 trucks. They are split shot injectors meaning they fire a small pilot shot before the main shot. These injectors flow 130-135cc of fuel.
AC injectors are found in the high torque version of the T444E and do not come in any Powerstrokes. They have the same internals as the AB injectors with the exception of the single shot plunger and barrel. However due to them being single shot injectors they flow 160cc. This is due to the way the split shots work. They have a small passage that opens, much like a port in a two stroke engine, that are uncovered that bypass the injection pressure out the side of the barrel instead of out the end through the nozzle. Because of this pause a portion of the travel of the plunger does nothing for injecting fuel so a split shot injects less fuel for the same amount of travel as a single shot.
AD injectors are also split shot but flow 135-140cc of fuel due to a slightly longer plunger stroke. These are found in all late '99-'03 Powerstrokes and T444Es.
AE and AF injectors are essentially the same as AD injectors but were called a long lead injector that was used as an attempt to cure a "cackle" issue many people complained about.
BA, BB, and BC injectors are essentiall all the same and are the same as AC injectors but are found in some DT466s.
BD injectors are the only B codes with the larger 7.1mm plunger and barrel that are single shot injectors. These are the injectors people are usually talking about when they are talking about putting I530E injectors in their Powerstrokes.
BE injectors are essentially the same as the AD injectors but found in some '97-'99 DT466s.
EF, BG, BI, BJ, BN and BP injectors all have basicly the same capacity and are split shots. However the nozzles vary on them depending on application. They can be found in many DT466s and I530Es.
Any questions?
There is also a point where the stock nozzle just wont flow enough fuel to get the desired amount out in a realisitic time frame. That's why high capacity injectors require larger nozzles to use that capacity.
Codes- All powerstroke and T444Es come with A code injectors. A code injectors have a 6.0mm plunger and a 16mm intensifier piston. What this does is multiply the ICP so that injection pressure is adiquate but not having to have huge amounts of ICP like say in the 20,000 psi range. This difference give you approximately a 7:1 difference and therefore increases your injection pressure 7 psi for every 1 psi of ICP.
All DT466s and I530E injectors are B codes. Of those some DT466s and all I530Es have a 7.1mm plunger, hense more fuel per mm of stroke, with a 17.5mm intensifier piston. This gives you approximately a 6:1 ratio. So no it will not have quite as high of ICP as as the A codes but it's not as bad as it could be. However due to the larger intensifier piston they reqire much more high pressure oil to make the piston stroke the same distance. This is why you need a high pressure oil system with a higher capacity.
Hybrid injectors are taking the 7.1mm plunger and barrel out of a BD code I530E injector and installing it into an A code injector with a 16mm intensifier piston. As you could imagine the down fall is that the injection ratio is dropped to approximatly 5:1 further decreasing injection pressure. However with the smaller intensifier piston it requires no more oil than an equivilant A code yet it flows the same amount of fuel as a B code. The result is much more fuel capacity without the need for more high pressure oil volume.
A codes and B codes can be further broken down as well.
A and AA injectors came in the '94-'97 non-california trucks. They are all 90cc injectors and are single shots.
AB injectors came in the '97 cali, and all early '99 trucks. They are split shot injectors meaning they fire a small pilot shot before the main shot. These injectors flow 130-135cc of fuel.
AC injectors are found in the high torque version of the T444E and do not come in any Powerstrokes. They have the same internals as the AB injectors with the exception of the single shot plunger and barrel. However due to them being single shot injectors they flow 160cc. This is due to the way the split shots work. They have a small passage that opens, much like a port in a two stroke engine, that are uncovered that bypass the injection pressure out the side of the barrel instead of out the end through the nozzle. Because of this pause a portion of the travel of the plunger does nothing for injecting fuel so a split shot injects less fuel for the same amount of travel as a single shot.
AD injectors are also split shot but flow 135-140cc of fuel due to a slightly longer plunger stroke. These are found in all late '99-'03 Powerstrokes and T444Es.
AE and AF injectors are essentially the same as AD injectors but were called a long lead injector that was used as an attempt to cure a "cackle" issue many people complained about.
BA, BB, and BC injectors are essentiall all the same and are the same as AC injectors but are found in some DT466s.
BD injectors are the only B codes with the larger 7.1mm plunger and barrel that are single shot injectors. These are the injectors people are usually talking about when they are talking about putting I530E injectors in their Powerstrokes.
BE injectors are essentially the same as the AD injectors but found in some '97-'99 DT466s.
EF, BG, BI, BJ, BN and BP injectors all have basicly the same capacity and are split shots. However the nozzles vary on them depending on application. They can be found in many DT466s and I530Es.
Any questions?
Compareing B codes to hybrids is kind of a tricky thing. The reason being is you have to have big oil to run the b codes and with that there are some defineat advantages. Most hybrids are run on a stock pump though.
The hybrids theorecticly have less injection pressure so they aren't going to atomize the fuel as well. And if you have a marginal HPOP that's not holding desired ICP at the top end it's not going to perform as well. But then you start getting into just how much oil is actually getting into the injectors and what is the actual pressure in the injector?
The b codes requireing much more oil volume needs to be able to get all that larger capacity in there at the same rate of time that the hybrid gets its much lower capacity in. This is where you start running into issues that will go against what a lot of people (especially some who sell big oil systems) want to admit. It doesn't matter so much how much rail pressure you have but what's in the injectors. If the actual pressure in the hybrid is much higher than the B code because it can get that smaller volume in as quick as it needs to then there is a real possibility that you will have more injection pressure with the hybrid. If you can find a way to get the oil in the B codes as quickly as it needs to be then you will have better injection pressure and will make more power yet. But then we run into an issue of the big oil systems being able to maintain pressure which is why some refuse to look at the mathmatical minimums that a stock B code requires let alone a modifed one. Two stock pumps are actually just barely up to the task if all the efficiency numbers were 100% which they aren't.
Swamp's has done some extensive research on this and found it to be true. They have made some modifications to injectors which significanly improved the flow of oil into the injector and made a huge difference and have saw the oil consumption go way up because of it. However their process was found to be less than reliable on a daily driven truck. The tollerances just had to be to tight on a couple parts to really use the injectors over exteneded use of daily driving. Diesel Innovations is also in the testing stages of a similar mod done a slightly different way to come to the same result. So far I've heard they are having very good luck with it on hybrid injectors but have yet to get a set of B codes done with them.
EH tips have a media flowed through them that basicly polishes the holes and puts a nice radius on the edges. This is similar to porting like what you'd do on a cylender head. Also in the EH process if you do one at a time like Dynomite Diesel Performance does you can make a better more ballanced set of nozzles. EDMed noxxles if not done propery ,which is very expensive, can leave a rough surface that looks like it has welding slag on it and does not leave nice rounded edges for the fuel to flow around. You can see some before and after pictures on DDP's web site at www.dynomitedieselperformance.com.
The hybrids theorecticly have less injection pressure so they aren't going to atomize the fuel as well. And if you have a marginal HPOP that's not holding desired ICP at the top end it's not going to perform as well. But then you start getting into just how much oil is actually getting into the injectors and what is the actual pressure in the injector?
The b codes requireing much more oil volume needs to be able to get all that larger capacity in there at the same rate of time that the hybrid gets its much lower capacity in. This is where you start running into issues that will go against what a lot of people (especially some who sell big oil systems) want to admit. It doesn't matter so much how much rail pressure you have but what's in the injectors. If the actual pressure in the hybrid is much higher than the B code because it can get that smaller volume in as quick as it needs to then there is a real possibility that you will have more injection pressure with the hybrid. If you can find a way to get the oil in the B codes as quickly as it needs to be then you will have better injection pressure and will make more power yet. But then we run into an issue of the big oil systems being able to maintain pressure which is why some refuse to look at the mathmatical minimums that a stock B code requires let alone a modifed one. Two stock pumps are actually just barely up to the task if all the efficiency numbers were 100% which they aren't.
Swamp's has done some extensive research on this and found it to be true. They have made some modifications to injectors which significanly improved the flow of oil into the injector and made a huge difference and have saw the oil consumption go way up because of it. However their process was found to be less than reliable on a daily driven truck. The tollerances just had to be to tight on a couple parts to really use the injectors over exteneded use of daily driving. Diesel Innovations is also in the testing stages of a similar mod done a slightly different way to come to the same result. So far I've heard they are having very good luck with it on hybrid injectors but have yet to get a set of B codes done with them.
EH tips have a media flowed through them that basicly polishes the holes and puts a nice radius on the edges. This is similar to porting like what you'd do on a cylender head. Also in the EH process if you do one at a time like Dynomite Diesel Performance does you can make a better more ballanced set of nozzles. EDMed noxxles if not done propery ,which is very expensive, can leave a rough surface that looks like it has welding slag on it and does not leave nice rounded edges for the fuel to flow around. You can see some before and after pictures on DDP's web site at www.dynomitedieselperformance.com.
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815 Posts
Ok GTS How do you figure 2 stock hpop can barely keep up with stock b codes? when every one than runs them have no problems? Tell me how come bb, elmo,
Big R, david lott, luke, and more have no problems? but you have a problem? Please tell me I would like to learn why 2 stock pumps can not keep up for all of these guys .
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Big R, david lott, luke, and more have no problems? but you have a problem? Please tell me I would like to learn why 2 stock pumps can not keep up for all of these guys .
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7,730 Posts
Who are you???
The words in your post sound as though they have come from a Parrot standing on my shoulder throughout all of the injector work I have done.
Do I have a living Twin somewhere in the world? Is mine the daily driver truck you refer to having run the high pressure oil modded injectors?
This is too weird...
The words in your post sound as though they have come from a Parrot standing on my shoulder throughout all of the injector work I have done.
Do I have a living Twin somewhere in the world? Is mine the daily driver truck you refer to having run the high pressure oil modded injectors?
This is too weird...
nick I just explained it. Read the last post. I never said anyone is having problems with them. But there is room for improvment. Answer me this. If Lott was getting down the track faster than anyone on his single pump and hybrids and wasn't haveing any "problems" then why would he continue to look for new ideas to go faster? What he had before B codes and big oil was working great.
Charlie it's good to see you posting again. It's been awhile since I've seen you around. Honestly I don't know of who all had the injector mods done by Swamp's but I do know of one other person besides you. I wasn't aware you were one of them. But it does seem as I recall we've bounced ideas off each other over the phone once or twice.
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1,579 Posts
It makes sense, all the pressure in the world does you know good if you have a bottleneck (say, at the injector) and can't get the volume...
B codes can not be made into hybrids. They could be made into reverse hybrids but they won't work properly. Reverse hybrids are taking the larger B codes with the larger intensifier pistons and installing the smaller 6mm plunger and barrels. The advantage to this would be that it would greatly increase the injection pressure promoting better atomization however due to the large volume of oil needed and small amount of fuel delivered it further complicate the issue of trying to get enough oil into the injector.
If you do plan on big oil first then B codes would most likely be the way to go. However I would recomend installing powerstroke 7 hole nozzles on B codes as they come with 5 or 6 hole nozzles that don't have the correct spray angles.
If you do plan on big oil first then B codes would most likely be the way to go. However I would recomend installing powerstroke 7 hole nozzles on B codes as they come with 5 or 6 hole nozzles that don't have the correct spray angles.
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