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Discussion Starter #1
was contemplating installing some different injector nozzles but I have never done it before and have read things here and there but haven't seen much on the 6.4s. biggest questions are along the lines of how big of a nozzle is safe to run without needing major engine work, do I need a lift pump, what are the pros and cons of different size nozzles, and finally are they really worth the money, I have talked with dmax guys (I know its a different animal) and they all say just the nozzles aren't worth a damn in their trucks and they are better off buying new injectors so on and so forth. is this the same with the 6.4s?

as of now the truck has the mini maxx, cai, 4 inch turbo back, egr delete, cold side intercooler pipe with larger intake elbow, and crank case vent.. I know I should be considering head studs before I go any farther and I have, im just trying to get an idea of different things
 

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Air before fuel!
 

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No gains from nozzles unless you have duel pumps or a "modded" single. Also some bigger turbos to take advantage of more fuel. Better off swapping out the atmo for a 72, 76, or something along those lines.
 

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What can I do to get more air? And is it worth doing just the 76 atmo?
 

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:doh: thought about how I just asked how to get more air.... disregard that part lol
 

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I don't know much about the 76, but a lot of people have had good success with just a 71 or 72. I have the towpowers and like them a bunch. I think they are 71/59
 

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was contemplating installing some different injector nozzles but I have never done it before and have read things here and there but haven't seen much on the 6.4s. biggest questions are along the lines of how big of a nozzle is safe to run without needing major engine work, do I need a lift pump, what are the pros and cons of different size nozzles, and finally are they really worth the money, I have talked with dmax guys (I know its a different animal) and they all say just the nozzles aren't worth a damn in their trucks and they are better off buying new injectors so on and so forth. is this the same with the 6.4s?

as of now the truck has the mini maxx, cai, 4 inch turbo back, egr delete, cold side intercooler pipe with larger intake elbow, and crank case vent.. I know I should be considering head studs before I go any farther and I have, im just trying to get an idea of different things
If you have the cab off/injectors out, etc...and the truck wasn't having any fuel injector issues, we offer a nozzle install, flow test service, that includes new o-rings, fuel tubes, etc...

A larger nozzle can injector more fuel in a given amount of time, when compared to a stock injector...so if you didn't have plans of upgrading your HPCR pump...you'd need to either choose a conservatively sized nozzle, or have your tuner cut the injection duration back so that you can maintain rail pressure.

Swamps Diesel Performance

Due to the high injection/rail pressure...a small increase in nozzle orifice size, yields dramatic increase in flow on our CR flow bench, and are an animal in a truck...so be careful on getting too aggressive with nozzle size, unless you have a good handle on the tuning..or have an experienced tuner 'on call' to pull injection duration.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
looks like I have lots of homework to do.. thanks guys
 

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Shortly, I will have my truck back. It is getting an upgraded LP fuel system (Marty's kit with the A-1000), a WG (which is holding everything up), 15% nozzles, and a 76 (JHP). I will post results when I get the truck back.
 

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MPD 30% nozzles don't need an upgraded pump and use innovative for tuning. He has the tuning for the 30s on a stock pump dialed in.
 

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OP,
This can be a confusing subject because even the "experts" disagree on this topic and there has even been some conflicting results when testing nozzles (back to back) on a 6.4. Here's basic facts:
1. Unless you have a freak HPFP, you will not be able to maintain RP on a race tune (PW 2.2 to 2.3) with anything bigger than stock nozzles (if you have 1 stock HPFP).
2. To maintain RP on a race tune with anything over stock nozzles, you MUST have a modded HPFP or run dual HPFPs.
3. If you don't maintain RP, you will lose some HP.
4. To get the full potential from a nozzle larger than stock, you must have a modded HPFP or dual HPFPs.

At first glance, it would appear that I am disagreeing with dsberman94, but that is not the case. In reality, Innovative (in this case and as Golfer explained in his post) is cutting back the PW so that 1 stock HPFP can maintain RP with larger than stock nozzles. This is where the diagreements start and the evidence is conflicting. Some very knowledgeable people argue that a 15% or 30% can make more HP than a stock nozzle by cutting the PW because it allows for better atomization. As Woodhouse put it in one of his posts, this method keeps you from "having to piss diesel at the piston". In other words, running the longer PW (with a stock nozzle) means you will still be spraying diesel on the piston as it starts its decent which isn't real efficient. I do to lean towards this side of the fence and that is one of the reasons I am going to run 15% nozzles with 1 stock HPFP. Others say that the 6.4 really doesn't gain and can even lose HP by this method. JD (when he was Elite) did some testing of different nozzles and even after modifying the tuning, he lost HP when he went to bigger nozzles (and this was back to back testing - same engine, truck, dyno, temps, etc). My best GUESS as to why he had those results, is they never got tuning perfected for each respected nozzle. IIRC when they did modify the tunes, but it was not via live tuning.
Hope this helps clear up some of this subject.
 

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..at the end of the day you CAN run one stock HPCR pump with eleventy-billion over nozzles....and maintain rail pressure...but you HAVE to cut back the inj PW

here's the deal...the pump doesn't give two chits about PW or nozzle size...

it's a fixed displacement(per revolution) pump...

soo...if you are FLOWING the same amount of fuel....then regardless of nozzle size...the pump does & will maintain RP.

if a stock injector needs 2.3ms & 25kpsi to flow 280cc's

and a modded nozzle only needs 1.2ms to flow 280cc's...you WILL hold 25kpsi.

If you're not holding RP...then you're literally flowing more VOLUME through the nozzle..


conversely..if you keep the FLOW the same (not RP)..but FLOW through the nozzle..then you can maintain RP.

but I wholeheartedly disagree that when you get to "x" nozzle size..you need two pumps..

absolutely not true...what you need is a tuner that can detune it UNTIL you GET two pumps...

this isn't 2003...this is a TUNABLE issue...been there..done that...

don't pull a truck apart fourteen times to swap nozzles until you hold rail pressure....LOL...
 

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..at the end of the day you CAN run one stock HPCR pump with eleventy-billion over nozzles....and maintain rail pressure...but you HAVE to cut back the inj PW

here's the deal...the pump doesn't give two chits about PW or nozzle size...

it's a fixed displacement(per revolution) pump...

soo...if you are FLOWING the same amount of fuel....then regardless of nozzle size...the pump does & will maintain RP.

if a stock injector needs 2.3ms & 25kpsi to flow 280cc's

and a modded nozzle only needs 1.2ms to flow 280cc's...you WILL hold 25kpsi.

If you're not holding RP...then you're literally flowing more VOLUME through the nozzle..


conversely..if you keep the FLOW the same (not RP)..but FLOW through the nozzle..then you can maintain RP.

but I wholeheartedly disagree that when you get to "x" nozzle size..you need two pumps..

absolutely not true...what you need is a tuner that can detune it UNTIL you GET two pumps...

this isn't 2003...this is a TUNABLE issue...been there..done that...

don't pull a truck apart fourteen times to swap nozzles until you hold rail pressure....LOL...
In case my post wasn't clear (it is kinda difficult to type this out cause I can't type as fast I can talk)...I agree with everything you said INCLUDING you don't need 2 pumps to run a certain size nozzle, BUT you DO need 2 pumps (or a modded pump) to get the MAX potential out of any nozzle larger than stock on a 6.4.
To me, the question that I still don't think we have the complete answer for is what PW and timing give the most potential for a nozzle. For example, if you run 30% nozzles with 1 stock pump, probably a 1.9-2.0 PW is going to be the max PW before you start losing RP. Throw a second pump on and you can maintain easily at 2.2-2.3 PW, but does the 2.2-2.3 PW give the max potential for that nozzle? In all liklihood, the max potential of each nozzle is going to be a different PW (and timing). My guess is that the most efficient timing and PW will decrease with the size of the nozzle because the bowl in the piston is always the same size. Of course, RPM is also a factor and the other variable is the RP itself. Even though ~25k RP (give or take 2k) is the desired RP, based on the newer PS and Dmax who both use the CP4 which flows less but can make higher RP, I assume the higher RP is more efficient. I think I read Audi or one of those damn foreign luxury cars that are using a diesel engine are running RP of the low 30ks because that is more efficient and produces less emissions for the same power level. IMO, this subject is one of the reasons Dmax and Cummins still have an advantage over the 6.4. They have been out longer so more testing has gone on to determine what the optimal PW and timing are for those motors.
 

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you're on it for certain...

before you consider nozzle size...you need to look at the application

as engine rpm increases...the (mechanical) window of opportunity to inject large volumes of fuel decreases...

We have calculations that tell us piston speed, velocity, dwell time, etc, etc for a given engine..at a given rpm.

The speed at which the piston approaches, and retracts from TDC...AND the volume of fuel you 'need' (to reach a hp goal, wheel speed, etc) are what determine nozzle size...

from a 'practical' standpoint...(ie, a hot street truck/daily driver/weekend hot rod)..doesn't need to really worry about too much..

these guys/gals need to focus on the balance between volume injected and atomization...unless someone is bonkers and doesn't give a flip about hp AND fuel economy/efficiency...

it's the competition focused engines that need good data on what size nozzle they NEED to flow 'x' amount of fuel in a given amount of time (based on expected engine rpm)..those trucks get to deal with 'instantaneous' pump volume issues, compression ratio, and they run a fine line with start of injection & the ability to maintaincylinder pressure at high rpm...without pitching things apart at 'normal' rpm..
 

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Discussion Starter #15
lots of good info! I guess my question now would be, are/is there certain steps I should take to get to running larger nozzles? this truck is not going to be some race truck, its my DD and I haul a 30 ft goose neck from time to time. I don't want to have some big crazy build out of this truck but id like to get the most out of it with out having to tear it way down and spend thousands of dollars to build the motor.
 

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lots of good info! I guess my question now would be, are/is there certain steps I should take to get to running larger nozzles? this truck is not going to be some race truck, its my DD and I haul a 30 ft goose neck from time to time. I don't want to have some big crazy build out of this truck but id like to get the most out of it with out having to tear it way down and spend thousands of dollars to build the motor.
Personally, especially for a DD that tows, I am an air before fuel guy. I hot shot on the side and the my old set up was great for it. See my sig for my mods. The 71 spools awesome when towing, it gave me lower EGTs, and it added some power. My vote for you would be do a drop in atmo and have money set aside to do studs in case they ever go. I would also do exh manny and up pipes if the cab ever needs to come up. If my HPFP hadn't been failing and I wasn't lifting the cab already, I never would have changed a thing...but I had to take advantage of the cab being up to try something different. :D
 

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Discussion Starter #17
ok sounds good, i considered the atmo already but wasn't sure if the truck would starve for fuel after and didn't want to spend 3,000 on injectors so considered the nozzles.. either way i learned a lot out of this and i appreciate you guys spending the time writing me a small encyclopedia on it!
 

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ok sounds good, i considered the atmo already but wasn't sure if the truck would starve for fuel after and didn't want to spend 3,000 on injectors so considered the nozzles.. either way i learned a lot out of this and i appreciate you guys spending the time writing me a small encyclopedia on it!
My truck gained HP and MPG when I did the switch (I should note that I also did 6.0 exhale manny and upgraded up pipes as well as a ported intake manny with the 71). In terms of starving for fuel, think of it this way....running factory tuning is or little tunes is basically the fuel already scaled back. Then when you consider that without fuel, you don't get air (boost) because the exhaust pressure is what drives the turbo to create boost. The biggest problem you will face by running too big of a turbo is it will be laggy. The other issue would be too high of EBP but that subject is much more complicated so I will just leave it as this...a 71 atmo is not too big for stock fuel.
 

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ok sounds good, i considered the atmo already but wasn't sure if the truck would starve for fuel after and didn't want to spend 3,000 on injectors so considered the nozzles.. either way i learned a lot out of this and i appreciate you guys spending the time writing me a small encyclopedia on it!
If your truck is running fine...and is not exhibiting any injector related issue, we routinely do a nozzle upgrade, which includes complete flow testing of your injectors, new o-rings, and new fuel tubes from the rail to the inj(s).

If a customer sends in his/her own cores, we typically have them turned around in 2-3 days after we receive them.

The only way we will do an 'exchange' on common rail injectors, is if the customer purchases new Motorcraft injectors, from which we will disassemble and modify (flow test, balance, etc).
 
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