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Billett is dimensionally bigger but lighter than forged considerably, not really rocket science.
So are you telling me that while using any given material, you can simultaneously take up more space, yet have less mass and retain superior strength?

If so, I would have to disagree.



You can't have bigger, lighter and stronger at the same time unless you use a different material. And this thread is discussing process, not material selection.
 

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So are you telling me that while using any given material, you can simultaneously take up more space, yet have less mass and retain superior strength?

If so, I would have to disagree.



You can't have bigger, lighter and stronger at the same time unless you use a different material. And this thread is discussing process, not material selection.
What i am saying is that the aluminum alloy that is used in the pro series R&R rods is lighter and stronger than any steel forged rod on the market even though they are dimensionally bigger.
 

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What i am saying is that the aluminum alloy that is used in the pro series R&R rods is lighter and stronger than any steel forged rod on the market even though they are dimensionally bigger.
So you simply don't understand the difference between material and process well enough to be able to individually discuss them each intelligently. Or enough grace to allow people who can, to do so.
 

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If you cant understand that aluminum alloy is lighter than chromoly steel then i cant help you.
Do us a favor and check out the thread title. Or has it completely escaped your mind that the materials can have various processes applied to them.

Some of us were foolishly attempting to discuss forged vs billet as the title would have us to, while you continue to intermix material as you see fit with flagrant disregard to the fact that material and process are two separate discussions, or that a given material can have a multitude of various processes applied in order to reach the finished shape/product.

Did an aluminum forging ever cross your mind?
 

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Do us a favor and check out the thread title.
You are so right, just got caught up in proving to you that forged is not the all mighty rod , my bad. Anyway back to the thread at hand. You can be happy with your forged and i will be happy with my R&R Pro Billet 4340 Chromoly Steel connecting rods that are cryogenically treated, triple-tempered, vacuum heat treated, magnafluxed, rockwell tested, and balanced, deal :ford:
 

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My Hypermax rods weigh less than stock, and they should be more than capable of enduring what it would take to rip my block into pieces around them.

I believe the billet options all weigh more than the stock pieces. Some of them considerably more.

You had to have just read that the billet rod will have to be dimensionally larger than the forged rod to produce the same rod strength when equal material is used.
There was an old thread on TDS where we managed to compile the weights of the aftermarket rod offerings at the time.

R&R, Tymar, and Cunnignham were lighter than stock forged, while Crower and Wipe Out were heavier.
 

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There was an old thread on TDS where we managed to compile the weights of the aftermarket rod offerings at the time.

R&R and Cunnignham were lighter than stock forged, while Crower and Wipe Out were heavier.

Were the R&R and Cunningham designs that weighed less than the OE pieces the current designs, or the earlier ones that did or did not lead to catastrophic failure depending on who you talk to?

If the current designs are also lighter than stock then I was incorrect in my assumption, and maybe only half of the billet options are heavier than stock. While I don't see it benefiting me, it should be pointed out that some people (mainly pullers) feel that increasing rotating assembly weight to be a benefit.
 

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Were the R&R and Cunningham designs that weighed less than the OE pieces the current designs, or the earlier ones that did or did not lead to catastrophic failure depending on who you talk to.

If the current designs are also lighter than stock I was incorrect in my assumption, and maybe only half of the billet options are heavier than stock. Although it should be pointed out that some people feel that increasing rotating assembly weight to be a benefit.
The weights for the R&R's and the Cunningham's were for the current versions. No failures have been associated with these.
 

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mine are not lighter....
Luke, he is having the hardest time comprehending the fact that you are allowed to forge shapes out of material other than steel.

And since he cannot discuss process and material one at a time, you would be best served by not directly engaging him in what you think might be a discussion or a debate, but what will ultimately just be you hearing about all the cool things he has on his truck, cause it's got "everything"...... well except for a functionally sized first stage among other bountiful blunders.


And if someone begins to think poor speedissomethinghedoesn'thave is getting attacked, please...

Billett is dimensionally bigger but lighter than forged considerably, not really rocket science.
And the SA overtone began...
 

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Evidently you got into stroken's stash, step away from the pipe charles. Aftermarket forged rods are a good upgrade from stock but they are not as strong as billett no matter how many funny brownies you eat :pointlaugh:
Not true. What everone refers to as billet, is nothing more that the original ingot that has gone through the hot rolling mill to produce plate stock. Not nearly as strong as a forging of same size.

The problem with a forged rod also comes from the act of forging. The forging process leaves an inconsistent, rough surface on the rod. This roughness creates a multitude of stress points on the rod. "If you disregard the fasteners, most failures in a connecting rod are generated from some sort of inclusion or stress riser on the surface, "It's like putting a notch in a coat hanger. When you bend it, it is going to break at the notch."




A billet rod is created by literally machining the rod out of a solid chunk of metal. The machining process creates a smooth surface that is (unless there is a problem in the manufacturing process or simply a bad design) free of surface inclusions. By avoiding the forging process altogether you have avoided a weakness, but you haven't been able to take advantage of strength by influencing the grain flow

Not that forged cant be made as strong as your run of the mill billett but billett can be made stronger than forged if the right steel and process is used such as used by your higher end perf manufacturers. Carrillo,crower,and R&R etc.
A forged piece of the same design will ALWAYS be stronger than that a piece machined from plate or bar stock.

All things being equal (i.e. the physical dimensions of the rod, material type, etc.) a forging will ALWAYS be stronger than a piece made froma a "billet", or from casting.

The forging process changes the internal grain structure of the piece. These "grain lines" follow the shape of the piece, making it strong.

When you cut a rod from a "billet" (a solid block of material), the grain lines in the piece all run parallel to each other. The machining process cuts through these grain lines, thus making a weaker piece (again, all things remaining the same).

Here is an example of grain structure in a forged piece, and how forging vs. machining cuts the grain lines. (Couldn't find a pic of a con-rod, but you get the idea):



The forging process DOES leave a rough suface finish, which can create "stress risers" and cause a surface-stress fracture. Shot-peening and polishing of the rod's outer surface removes most of this, which further increases the strength. Heat treating is last step in creating a hi-strength forged piece.

The problem with forging is that it is expensive, requiring dies, large presses and big heating equipment.

Cutting a piece from a solid billet is relatively inexspensive, particularly with todays modern cad-cam milling machines: throw the piece in and let the machine run it's program while you sit back and read the paper (well, maybe not that simple, lol...but you know...)

Lastly, "forged billet" is kind of a joke, IMO. Yes, you can have a billet block that has been forged instead of the more conventional roll-forming, but the machining of the piece will still cut through the grain structure of the forging, so there is little advantage to this...other than it sounds cool...
Correct. Most forgings have a smooth surface are except in the flash zone, but in the case of all the aftermarket rods I have dealt with, this is removed, cleaned, polished down, and peened, unlike factory forged rods.

Enter what is commonly known as the "fully machined" rod. This process produces the strongest rod (gauging material strength only) by taking the best traits of the forging and billet processes and combining them. A fully machined rod starts out as a large forging (over six pounds in the case of most of Carrillo's rods) and then is machined into its final form much like a billet rod. This produces a rod that has the optimum grain structure of a forging along with the smooth exterior that you find in billet pieces. It's the best of both worlds
Correct, a machined forging is the best choice.

so if I got a set of OEM forged rods got them shot peened and cryo treated I would have a rod that would handle my HP goals all day long (500)
A stock rod, without anything should handle 500. If you are going to polish them and shot peen old rods, first make sure you magnaflux and dye pen then, I have seen folks actually shot peen over cracks that now don't show up in test and lead to failure.

Dont forget that billett is also lighter than forged while still keeping its strength, which is the biggest benefit when building a performance engine. Strength, durability, and lightweight = Expensive :D
Nope, while the density of forging is slightly greater than the hot rolled billet, for the same area cross section, the forging is always stronger.

What i am saying is that the aluminum alloy that is used in the pro series R&R rods is lighter and stronger than any steel forged rod on the market even though they are dimensionally bigger.
Absolutely Not true. AL will run in higher rev HP lower torque engines and survive, but an AL forging isn't stronger than a 4340 forging.

If you cant understand that aluminum alloy is lighter than chromoly steel then i cant help you.
If you can't understand that 4340 is 4 times stronger than the best grade AL out there, then I can't help you.

You are so right, just got caught up in proving to you that forged is not the all mighty rod , my bad. Anyway back to the thread at hand. You can be happy with your forged and i will be happy with my R&R Pro Billet 4340 Chromoly Steel connecting rods that are cryogenically treated, triple-tempered, vacuum heat treated, magnafluxed, rockwell tested, and balanced, deal :ford:
Given the same rod design, one machined billet, and one forged, the forging will be stronger.


.
 

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Guys your over complicating all this...

Crowers=More Expensive=Better!!

Factory forged=Not as expensive=Not as good..

Right??? ;)
 

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Not true. What everone refers to as billet, is nothing more that the original ingot that has gone through the hot rolling mill to produce plate stock. Not nearly as strong as a forging of same size.


A forged piece of the same design will ALWAYS be stronger than that a piece machined from plate or bar stock.


Correct. Most forgings have a smooth surface are except in the flash zone, but in the case of all the aftermarket rods I have dealt with, this is removed, cleaned, polished down, and peened, unlike factory forged rods.


Correct, a machined forging is the best choice.


A stock rod, without anything should handle 500. If you are going to polish them and shot peen old rods, first make sure you magnaflux and dye pen then, I have seen folks actually shot peen over cracks that now don't show up in test and lead to failure.


Nope, while the density of forging is slightly greater than the hot rolled billet, for the same area cross section, the forging is always stronger.


Absolutely Not true. AL will run in higher rev HP lower torque engines and survive, but an AL forging isn't stronger than a 4340 forging.


If you can't understand that 4340 is 4 times stronger than the best grade AL out there, then I can't help you.


Given the same rod design, one machined billet, and one forged, the forging will be stronger.


.
When you and charles get off your high horse maybe you should give R&R a call and get an updated version on what they produce. If hotstick wouldn't have chimmed in and backed up my statement about current billett being lighter than forged he would still think he was mr know it all. Most of what you tried to correct me on was not my findings, rather information from a company that was documented through extensive testing. I will stick with my junk R&R Pro Billet 4340 Chromoly Steel connecting rods that are cryogenically treated, triple-tempered, vacuum heat treated, magnafluxed, rockwell tested, and balanced.
 

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Luke, he is having the hardest time comprehending the fact that you are allowed to forge shapes out of material other than steel.

And since he cannot discuss process and material one at a time, you would be best served by not directly engaging him in what you think might be a discussion or a debate, but what will ultimately just be you hearing about all the cool things he has on his truck, cause it's got "everything"...... well except for a functionally sized first stage among other bountiful blunders.


And if someone begins to think poor speedissomethinghedoesn'thave is getting attacked, please...



And the SA overtone began...

Charles, you have NO IDEA what i am running. All you need to know is that i have more HP than you do, i will leave it at that.
 

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Charles, you have NO IDEA what i am running. All you need to know is that i have more HP than you do, i will leave it at that.

Keep it on track this is about billet and forged rods not how much hp you have. If you want to argue about that start a thread in smack talk.
 

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Maybe this will help clear things up a bit. Now here is the key with billet parts... billet parts have the CAPABILITY of being of higher strength than a forged part, it depends on what kind of steel the part is made from. A billet part is cut from a solid chunk of steel, so the material does NOT have to be forgeable. You can make parts out of superior strength materials to forging because you do not have to pick a material that is forgable.

P.S. 550hp was a year ago
 
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