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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
While I agree with some of the basic assumptions on some of the fuel system upgrades from the Hutch Mod as it's called to the regulated return system do/provide, I do have some alternative views on this topic which I would be happy to discuss here in this thread. I don't want to garbage up other threads with what can be called my personal views so I have started this thread. To my knowledge outside of Texastowncar (may he rest is peace) and the Ford Techs that instrumented Off Roads vehicle back around 2000, I have been the only owner/person to my knowledge to actually put analytical equipment on a PSD, record the data, and present it and have gone the extra mile IMHO to visually observe the fuel in an actual on on road operating PSD under actual operational conditions albiet a Van with at least an in tank configuration a little different than the normal F-series and my insights were very inlightening at least to me. If you want to discuss this topic from my point of view and experiences then post here and I will let the discussion begin. :cool:

Larry
 

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Wel let's here it. :D
 

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Same here lets discuss it.

Tom
 

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Larry,

This ain't TDS. Post up the info and share it with all of us.

If we don't like your opinion, we'll give you all sorts of crap about it, but the thread won't get deleted and Larry's Secrets will be re-born for all to see here on PSN.

You worry too much.

Now, open your yap and start blabberin'

Inquiring minds want to know.


prt
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
O_key_doe_key :D

I apologize for not getting back sooner, but I had a painting project that I needed to finish so that took priority ;)

Before I start one thing that I believe is different, but I have never dropped my tank and looked inside and base this on what other Vanners have found. The tanks on the E-series are metal and there is a slush box type affair around the pickup. It is IIRC about 10in or so square and around 3 or 4 inches high, open on the top and with slots around the bottom. This provides somewhat of a sump so under low fuel conditions the fuel slosh is somewhat restricted. Also, the E-series even has an extra "quick disconnect" between the tank HERE and the fuel pump.

My first thought is if it's not really broke don't try and fix it. I'll give you the "punch lines" and then go into details as the need arises ....

1. IMHO there is nothing seriously wrong with a properly functioning pre pump fuel system except that I would still recommend running a 3/8" fuel line from the top of the tank to the fuel pump and as Haul_n has done ream out that fitting on top of the tank. I did not find any air problems with at least the quick disconnect on top of the tank, but eliminating these QDs, especially the one on that vibrating pump just makes good sense. In my testing even when I introduced air into the stock fuel system before the pump even to the point that it got back thru the mixing chamber and I could see free air coming from the mixing chamber and going into the fuel pump I never noticed any effect on engine noise or performance. I know and believe based on the air problems that Haul_n worked on if air does get to the engine it will cause the engine to be noisy. I could never positively confirm where this air went, but I'm fairly confident it did not go thru my injectors.

2. The pre pump filtering and the stock filter's attempt at removing water post pump that most likely contains only "emulsified water" is not good enough IMHO and might be even characterized as pathetic at best. However, by simply installing a Dahl or Racor Turbine type pre pump filter with at least a 10 micron element will improve things by probably an order of magnitude and is a great way to monitor potential air issues between the filter and the in tank pick up system. This is only a like a $120 mod and just like adding a coolant filter just makes sense. Also, the Dahl filter will go mucho miles and should really eliminate or greatly reduce the frequency of changing the in valley filter and draining the factory fuel bowl. I can't put real numbers on this, but now I never drain my factory fuel bowl and plan on running my Dahl filter for at least 40-50K miles between changes and probably going that long for the factory filter. If you see "bubbles" coming out from the difuser cone on the Dahl, you have air problems and if you do the infamous Haul_n "Dahl Flip" and see a lot of air then you have more subtle issues that might need to be addressed.

For 99% of PSD owners I think these two items are all that need to be added. Now if you're worried about air collecting in the fuel rails because of the dead ended fuel system or think your engine is too noisy then again IMHO all that the vast majority of PSD owners need is the $120 "cackle fix" that ties the two 1/8 in unused ports together with a bleed orfice and ties into tthe factory return line. I do think having some method to let any air that might collect in the fuel rails an avenue to escape is a good idea. However, it be most effective I think at that point the stock system needs to be modified to feed the heads from the rear and tying the two front ports for any air to escape since IIRC the engine sets at a slight up angle in the chassis. I would also install an in cab fuel pressure guage to monitor fuel pressure since some feel that this orfice thing might cause an issue. However, a lot of folks that installed this orfice type system have reported improvements similiar to a full blown flow the the head regulated return system. If my engine ever gets noisy or develops that dreaded "cackle" and effects performance then I would probably only do the $120 fix.

If I had an F-series and was looking for lots of power with bigger injectors, etc. then more radical fuel mods are probably required along with some mod to the HPO supply. However, I think I would only go that route after I had installed both an in cab Fuel and HPOP gauges before doing the horsepower mods and then determine where the problem might be. The only time I would consider a thru the heads regulated return would be if I was loosing fuel pressure based on seeing a problem as verified by installation of an in cab fuel pressure guage and after attempting to solve the fuel pressure problem by simply re-plumbing the factory system to either feed all four 1/8 fittings on each end of the head or feeding directly into the back of each head thru the fuel rail drain plugs. If you go with a thru the heads regulated system I would want one that feed the back of the heads thru the fuel rail drain plugs and would include getting rid of the factory filter altogether and putting one of the 2 micron filters that Haul_n is going to use along with an AirDog. At that point I would do the intank mods since you've addressed all the considerations except fuel temp. I have always been against doing a reg return w/o adequately addressing this air issue. This should address the air issue and I might even consider putting some sort of in bed tank and using that to fill up from the station and feed the stock tank from that in bed tank thru a Dahl 100 filter using something like another factory fuel pump. That should get fairly water free fuel to feed the AirDog and then the rest of the system. Alternatively, doing exactly what I think Haul_n is going to end up with is another good approach since he is addressing effective water removal, effective final injector filtering, and if the gets fairly "free air" free fuel to the pump whatever air issue remaining might be acceptable with the high flow thru the heads.

Again these are just some of my thoughts and obviously each will do whatever they feel comfortable with and obviously some will disagree on some aspects of what I think and that is fine. While not directly related I'll throw out the following for folks to ponder ....

The "idle knock" at least and most likely the "cackle" may or may not be air related, but can be aggravated if air is present. I believe that these two phenomenon are acoustic wave phenomenon. I took acoustic narrow band data on my vehicle and found on the a couple of occassions I would get a slight case of "idle knock". If you look at the two graphs HERE you can see the harmonic nature of the "idle knock" phenomenon on the left where those harmonic peaks (see the dotted lines) were present and when the knock went away the lines were gone. All those graphs are of my vehicle which never exhibited any cackle problems at the known problematic cackle speeds and conditions. I never got any raw data, but based on what was posted in various wave files from members both before and after regulated return and in tank mods on vehicles that had reported "cackle" type problems, but even when the owners could hear the tapping/knocking the acoustic signature was still there. Unfortunately, I was not able to do any comparisons of levels before and after. If you look at the four graphs HERE you can compare the acoustic signature of my vehicle against one that reported both "idle knock" and "cackle" issues.
 

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That is some good information and very good reasoning behind your opinion.

In my testing even when I introduced air into the stock fuel system before the pump even to the point that it got back thru the mixing chamber and I could see free air coming from the mixing chamber and going into the fuel pump I never noticed any effect on engine noise or performance. I know and believe based on the air problems that Haul_n worked on if air does get to the engine it will cause the engine to be noisy. I could never positively confirm where this air went, but I'm fairly confident it did not go thru my injectors.
Just a gues here but if I were a bettin man I would put money on the fact that the air is going out the return line and back to the tank.

Since air is less dense than the fuel it will rise, or "float." The highest point of the fuel system is the filter and regulator assembly. The air coming from the feed line should stay in the fuel filter area or be sent out the return line and back to the tank. The exception to this would be that if the fuel flow going to the engine (heavy throttle usage) is high enough it may not let the air separate from the fuel so that it could "float" to the top of the system.

The crossover line that you mentioned would probably have more of an effect on fuel starvation of the #8 injector rather than a place for air to go. In my opinion if the air makes it into the incoming fuel lines (between the filter and heads) then it will only be able to make it out of the system through the injectors as long as the fuel is still moving at a high flow rate. These are my thoughts of the dead head (stock SD) fuel system. The movement of air in a regulated return style system would be a little different.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
That is some good information and very good reasoning behind your opinion.



Just a gues here but if I were a bettin man I would put money on the fact that the air is going out the return line and back to the tank.

Since air is less dense than the fuel it will rise, or "float." The highest point of the fuel system is the filter and regulator assembly. The air coming from the feed line should stay in the fuel filter area or be sent out the return line and back to the tank. The exception to this would be that if the fuel flow going to the engine (heavy throttle usage) is high enough it may not let the air separate from the fuel so that it could "float" to the top of the system.

The crossover line that you mentioned would probably have more of an effect on fuel starvation of the #8 injector rather than a place for air to go. In my opinion if the air makes it into the incoming fuel lines (between the filter and heads) then it will only be able to make it out of the system through the injectors as long as the fuel is still moving at a high flow rate. These are my thoughts of the dead head (stock SD) fuel system. The movement of air in a regulated return style system would be a little different.

I agree that free air between the tank and the in valley filter in a stock system should be filtered out by the stock filter assembly and returned to the tank if you are using the OEM Racor type filter and not the one with the cap integrated with the filter.

I agree that if the flow rates in the fuel rails is high enough like possibly in a full flow thru the heads fuel system the air might not have a chance to rise and get away from the injectors ..... However .... consider the following for air to potentially escape an uphill oriented engine via an orfice at the highest point in the fuel rail. Let's look at the speed of the fuel flowing into the fuel rail which I believe is like 1/2 inch in diamenter. At the extreme let's say you're consuming 12g/hr of fuel. That equal to getting 10mpg while going 120mph. That means each head is consuming 6 gal/hr of fuel = 128x6/60 oz/min = 12.8 oz/min or 12.8/60 oz/sec = .213 oz/sec. Now the volume of a gal is 231 cubic inches or 231/128 cubic inches per oz = 1.8 cubic inches per oz. Therefore that .213 oz/sec = .3838 cubic inches per sec consumption and flow requirements thru that 1/2 inch fuel rail in each head. The surface area of a 1/2 inch opening =.25x.25x3.14156= .196 square inches. Since each head only consumes .3838 cubic inches per sec the flow rate is only about 2 inches/sec or 1/6 fps fuel speed. If you assume the length of the head to be say 2 feet some fuel might be in the fuel rail for up to 12 sec (dwell time for any free air to rise to the highest point in the fuel rail and ultimately be expelled from the highest point in the fuel rail ) before being consumed. At 60mph and 10mpg this fuel speed is cut in half and the potential max dwell time doubled. This is all a gross level approximation since we know that the injector firing order has some injectors in the same head firing sequencially and that the actual flow rates will vary as the fuel pass down the fuel rail, but the point is if I've done all my math correctly that flow rate in the fuel rail in the stock dead headed system is a reaaaaaaaly slow fuel speed and can be a factor or two or more less at more reasonable fuel consumption rates. Also, we have ignored all the other "stuff" going on in the fuel rail like the pressure spikes from the "split shot" feedback, acoustic waves, etc. but taking those into account is way beyond my meager paygrade so to speak. Regardless of actual consumption rates in a full flow thru the head system at 40 gph fuel rate that's 20gal/hr per head 3.33 times the example above and with a max dwell time of only 3.5 sec.

Boy I hope someone checks all my math since it's been awhile doing this sort of stuff and I hope I haven't messed something simple :poke:

Larry
 

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Larry, what I didn't see you address in your posting is fuel aeration.

How do we deny or explain the results everyone sees with a regulated "flow through" system if it is not decreasing aeration of the fuel and thereby decreasing entrained air?
 

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Larry, what I didn't see you address in your posting is fuel aeration.

How do we deny or explain the results everyone sees with a regulated "flow through" system if it is not decreasing aeration of the fuel and thereby decreasing entrained air?
In a regulated return system any air that has made it into the fuel system SHOULD have enough time to separate from the fuel before heading down into the injector. Then the highest flow rate and highest point of the system is at the regulator sending fuel back to the tank. A regulated return system doesn't necessarily reduce the aeration of the fuel it just is able to dispose of it.

I am assuming that most of the gains people are seeing from a regulated return system are from removing the check valves at the heads and having the front and rear of both fuel rails connected.

The same SHOULD be able to be accomplished by removing the check valves from the stock system and adding a fuel crossover line (like the 6.0L guys are doing.) This is assuming that it is possible to remove the check valves from the stock system and have it operate properly. I am not too familliar with the stock SD system so I can't say for sure if it is acceptable to do this.


Larry - thanks for putting a calculator to it. I didn't check any of the math but everything you came up with sounds logical.

The only thing I am still wondering about is what happens to the air that does make it's way into the fuel rails on a dead head system? Does it just sit there until the engine is shut off, then eventually finds it's way back up to the fuel filter/regulator assy? Or does it just sit in the fuel rails and collect because there is such a small amount of air that it wouldn't make it into the injectors any way? The only other option is that it would collect in the fuel rails and eventually make it out through the injectors, but your data collected from real world testing on your van proves this theory incorrect.

One thing for everyone to keep in mind is that everything we have been talking about is assuming that you are flowing more volume of fuel through the system than the engine can use. If you have a situation where the fuel pump is flowing less volume that the engine can use at the pressure you have set then there will be no more fuel returning to the tank and most (if not all) of the entrained air will have no choice but to exit through the injectors.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
In a regulated return system any air that has made it into the fuel system SHOULD have enough time to separate from the fuel before heading down into the injector. Then the highest flow rate and highest point of the system is at the regulator sending fuel back to the tank. A regulated return system doesn't necessarily reduce the aeration of the fuel it just is able to dispose of it. Another view might be that any air is homoginized by forcing it thru the 2 micron fuel filter and if it's homoginized enough you will simply have a slightly compressible liquid and it isn't separated due to the high fuel rate thru the rail and does in fact go thru the injectors and while can't be heard it's only effect is the slight retarding in the injector timing and a consistent lack of some lubricity (sp?). Also, it doesn't seem that it could separate out or collect in the rail if my speed figures in my above post are correct, any air is being sweeped thru the fuel rail and if that volume goes into an injector that's where it goes. Based purely on what Haul_n experienced when air was collecting in the Dahl and he was apparantely geting burps of air is that it was not homoginized enough and he could hear the air going thru his injectors.

I am assuming that most of the gains people are seeing from a regulated return system are from removing the check valves at the heads and having the front and rear of both fuel rails connected.

The same SHOULD be able to be accomplished by removing the check valves from the stock system and adding a fuel crossover line (like the 6.0L guys are doing.) This is assuming that it is possible to remove the check valves from the stock system and have it operate properly. I am not too familliar with the stock SD system so I can't say for sure if it is acceptable to do this.


Larry - thanks for putting a calculator to it. I didn't check any of the math but everything you came up with sounds logical.

The only thing I am still wondering about is what happens to the air that does make it's way into the fuel rails on a dead head system? Does it just sit there until the engine is shut off, then eventually finds it's way back up to the fuel filter/regulator assy? Or does it just sit in the fuel rails and collect because there is such a small amount of air that it wouldn't make it into the injectors any way? The only other option is that it would collect in the fuel rails and eventually make it out through the injectors, but your data collected from real world testing on your van proves this theory incorrect. Another view might be that in a stock system, if you can keep any free air from the fuel pump, which the Dahl might do and any entrained air released before the stock filter is "filtered out" by the stock filter then only entrained air that is released between the fuel filter and the injectors should be an issue and with a very slow speed this issue is minimized. In my "Dahl flipping" days I could go 10 or 15K miles and not have any significant air collect in my Dahl. Also, as a complete WAG, as long as you're not releasing entrained air in the fuel rail due to the shock waves in the fuel rails which if significant should cause serious noise issues (another complete WAG) any free air that separates out during vehicle down time, might get expelled via the injectors during initial start up. Of course this is not good, but maybe the overall precentage is very small and not that significant in injector life and at low firing rates might be acceptable. Of course since none of us can be the proverbial fly on the fuel rail wall we really don't understand exactly what is going on in the fuel rails themselves.

One thing for everyone to keep in mind is that everything we have been talking about is assuming that you are flowing more volume of fuel through the system than the engine can use. If you have a situation where the fuel pump is flowing less volume that the engine can use at the pressure you have set then there will be no more fuel returning to the tank and most (if not all) of the entrained air will have no choice but to exit through the injectors. I'm not sure I can ever envision that happening. However, too low of fuel pressure can definitely IMO cause major issues probably from improperly ability of the injector to get a full shot of fuel and thus not having the injector get a proper spray and atomization from the injectors because of incomplete injector filling :confused:.
As far as fuel aeration you can either keep it out of the fuel before it gets to the FP and keep the fuel flow speed that the injectors actually see low or get rid of the air with the AirDog which from what I understand removes both "free" and some percentage of "entrained" air. "Free" air as I use it is that air that will naturally rise to the surface of a liquid whereas "entrained" air is the air that is released in something like is seen when a propeller cavitates. A submarine prop will cavitate as a function of both speed and depth because the deeper you go the higher the ambient pressure and the harder it is to release this naturally "entrained" air. However, once "entrained" air is released it does not easily become "entrained" again. In my view "entrained" air is really not a problem as long as it's not released and becomes "free" air. IIRC it has been stated that diesel can have between 5 and 10% entrained air and the one test I'm aware of when 10% "free" air was mixed and sent thru injectors a significant reduction in this 1,000 hr test was noted with really poor life at 20% and 30%. However, if we can keep the "entrained" air release to in the 1 or 2% range than it might not have any effect over the normal life of the injectors. Where we can kill ourselves IMHO is letting "free" air get into the fuel and go thru the fuel pump. As I have found out in my experiments and as I believe Haul_n discovered in his air problems is that releasing this "entrained" air under even a slight vacuum like is found pre pump is quite easy and that's where a large payoff can be seen in preventing this from happening. As a side observation under the correct conditions with very still water you can track the wake of a surface ship for tens of miles by following the visible "bubble wake", been there and done that. :D

Larry
 

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One thing for everyone to keep in mind is that everything we have been talking about is assuming that you are flowing more volume of fuel through the system than the engine can use. If you have a situation where the fuel pump is flowing less volume that the engine can use at the pressure you have set then there will be no more fuel returning to the tank and most (if not all) of the entrained air will have no choice but to exit through the injectors. I'm not sure I can ever envision that happening. However, too low of fuel pressure can definitely IMO cause major issues probably from improperly ability of the injector to get a full shot of fuel and thus not having the injector get a proper spray and atomization from the injectors because of incomplete injector filling.
I was reffering to someone that has injectors that are large enough to make the fuel pressure drop. If fuel pressure drops that means the regulator is fully closed and returning no fuel to the tank.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I was reffering to someone that has injectors that are large enough to make the fuel pressure drop. If fuel pressure drops that means the regulator is fully closed and returning no fuel to the tank.
Based just on pump capacity which should be in the 30 to 40 GPH range at like 60 to 70psi it just hard for me to see that situation as you have described. Now I'm not smart enough in fluid dynamics or big A** injectors to figure all this out, but at a given PSI thru a certain size line into say a long cavity like the fuel rail where the fuel pressure is trying to be regulated at the factory fuel bowl in a stock system, I can see where the stock system might not be able to keep up with and maintain the fuel pressure inside the fuel rails uniformly if the injector usage is high enough. The stock regulator might be responding, but not fast enough to say maintain pressure at the furtherest point in the fuel rail. Thus I don't think it's so much a question of capacity of the system, but it's design to deliver and maintain a sufficient flow/usage in the stock system. It just seems that this is a very complex and dynamic situation with a host of variables and as I said, I'm just not capable of analyzing that level of complexity. In this case a flow thru the heads fuel system would solve that problem since all the fuel is available after the heads and not at some point before (like at the stock fuel bowl). It would be interesting for some ME to "noodle" this and try and explain what might be going on since I would be interested in that prospective.

I might be wrong but I thought the 444 block was used and designed by Navstar for their lower HP applications and then adopted later by Ford for use in a much higher and maybe more demanding application and then we even stress the inherent design to it's limits by trying to dump more fuel into the cylinders than was ever envisioned by either Navstar or Ford.

I have absolutely no basis for this except for one report where someone was at an IH shop when a knocking T-444E was brought in and the tech hooked up some sort of "analyzer/programmer" into the computer and did something which immediately solved the issue. IIRC the poster said you could hear the engine go from knocking to nothing and back and forth until the tech was happy and left it. It is my understanding that a major, major difference in the Navstar and PSD engines is the computer where the Navstar is much larger and faster and have always felt that the Navstar engines could tweak their programming so that this "idle knock" or "cackle" issue was non existent in their engines. Let's say Navstar is able to do a fuel map table for each rpm and provide injector firing information for each injector firing whereas Ford can only do that for every 4th injector firing then I can see where the PSDs get their problems especially for the "cackle" phenomenon where it occurs in a fairly narrow rpm band and at light throttle position. Ford might hold all firing parameters consistent setting up a potential harmonic situation, whereas Navstar can slightly vary the firing parameters injector to injector firing so that the engine still runs smoothly and avoids the harmonic situation from occuring. Again this is all speculative on my part and a WAG at best.


Larry
 
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