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MCredman
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90 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Well I'm BACK , after getting my truck back on the road it did not last long enough for me . a few months ago I had gone through a long process of motor stalling when it got to operating temp. It ended up being a wiring repair done by dealership without my knowledge it fried the IPR also so fixed all that and for last couple months it has run great with no problems except brakes which I just finished front and rear a week ago. Two days before Christmas I was driving down highway when I noticed a change in the motor sound I pressed on throttle and not much power and no diesel sound . I quickly look at my ScanGauge and see the IPR was pegged at 84.7% so I change my route and cut thru high school headed to the house after about two miles at 84.7% it stalled in parking lot of high school two blocks from house. I walked home and gathered some tools and called to borrow dad's Jeep but did not get to start on it right away as I had shopping to do for family get together on the 24th the next day . After the gathering I went to truck and decided to disconnect the ICP first and see . Well it fired up but I had Jeep running to warm up in and lights shinning on truck to see . By the time I got Jeep secured and ice off my windshield the truck stalled and would not start . I went to house and rounded up the cheap ICP I bought for testing purposes and went back and installed that but I had run batteries down so now I had to pull batteries to take home and charge so another night in parking lot for truck. I got them charged up good and put them in this time I was reading to go as soon as it started . It fired up and I headed for the house and right as I turned into driveway it stalled. I have pulled and bench tested the IPR and its working fine so I went to dealership and bought a new ICP put it on and after a long cranking it started and I ran it 30 minutes in driveway but it would barely idle wanting to stall if I let off throttle completely . It was very sluggish as I throttled it up and seemed like turbo was not all there. Any ideas on this would be greatly appreciated , at this point I am going to air test it but don't think that is problem but I noticed that my base oil pressure was not coming up until after motor was running which it always came up with key on engine off before. I did check oil and its full . The other thing that was weird was the screen on IPR was still in hole when I removed the IPR I had to fish it out with needle nose pliers. And that screen was extra tight when I put in the IPR. Well thanks guys I hope I hear from you and Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all.
 

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3,689 Posts
I don't know why you would keep jacking with the icp sensor, especially since you already verified that wasn't the issue, by unplugging it and the problem persisted.
That's a classic hpo leak, if I've ever seen one. STC/Standpipe, etc.
AIR TEST IT

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 

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"resident smarty pants"
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4,162 Posts
You aren't going to ever get base engine oil pressure w/ "key on, engine off". The oil pump is mechanical and needs engine rpms to turn.

What are your FICM voltages when cranking? MPower, LPower, and VPower?
What are your cranking rpms?
What are your cranking ICP volts and IPR position?
Do you have cam/crank sync AND FICM sync when cranking?

Just to clarify, the IPR screen was pushed in when you removed the IPR valve?

If so, hopefully it was just due to lint or something benign creating extra resistance that caused it to push in.
 

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4,946 Posts
Have you replaced the stc fitting? I feel that it’s the only leak that can be large enough to make the engine stall from lack of icp pressure (other than a failed pump but the 05+pumps are very reliable). Stand pipes and dummy plugs will usually just cause a hot no start.
 

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MCredman
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90 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
KOEO - ICP/volt =0.23
ICP=0 psi
IPR= 14.8 %
FICM/log = 11.5
FICM/main=47.5

Cranking - ICP=1 psi
IPR=84.7 %
SYNC=1 I could not complete due to battery failure.

I think I may have a battery issue but don't think it is my main problem . I am going to pull batteries and take to have load tested. To answer Mathewd11 no I have not replaced the STC fitting with upgrade it is last one on the list as I replaced standpipes and dummy plugs couple months ago when I had similar issue.Bismic1 I will finish getting info as soon as I correct battery issue as I am pretty sure that the older of the two batteries has played out. Also the screen assembly stayed in the hole when I removed IPR to check it and I had to reach in with needle nose pliers and pull it out the screen was in good shape. I replaced ICP simply because its the original and wanted to take it out of the equation as I can't tell when it is in cripple mode and giving false numbers.If you recall how long it took to get to answer last time and ended with a wiring short on both IPR wires two feet into harness. I will be air testing and wondering if I can actually see the STC fitting air leak from outside or if it will not be visible should I go ahead and buy STC upgrade kit and plan to take off turbo and cover to access pump. I have watched Diesel Tech Ron's video on replacing without intake removal with a special wrench but it makes me a little nervous doing it that way but time savings is hard not to go that route .I will have to consider that over next day or so. I will take batteries tomorrow and go from there . Thanks guys for the input
 

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"resident smarty pants"
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4,162 Posts
Now I remember your last thread, lol. That was quite an ordeal!!!

The STC fitting is under the HPOP cover, you won't see a leak there.

With everything you have already done, I would just plan on changing it or having it changed.

After replacing the STC fitting with the upgraded fitting, plan on cranking w/ the solenoid jumper wire for 4 or 5 fairly long cranks with some rest periods in between each crank. This will get the majority of the air out before you crank w/ the key. This is MUCH easier on the batteries and the FICM.
 

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MCredman
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90 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for the advice Bismic1 do you happen to know the Motorcraft part number for that STC update kit. Is there no way to verify that it is leaking before tearing into this its a lot of labor if it is not leaking. How many different things can cause a hard start and stall that I should also check and is there anything else I should replace once I take off turbo and HPOP cover as I don't want to do this twice. I have been in there once before when I did the EGR delete and oil cooler replacement. If I pull valve covers and do air test I will be able to see injectors if they were leaking plus stand pipes and dummy plugs , is that right or wrong. If none of those are leaking what does that leave , the STC and what else. I am trying to rule out what I can by air test as that is a lot less to do if it helps isolate the leak if I even have a leak . If you recall everyone was saying it had a leak last time but it did not. This is different than last time as it will start but will not run for long before stalling. Is there anything else I should check.
 

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"resident smarty pants"
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4,162 Posts
STC fitting replacement kit: 4C3Z-9B246-F

I am sure by now you realize there are no guarantees when you get advice. Internet troubleshooting is hard since only the owner is actually there looking and listening to the truck. Also, only the owner has the potential for knowing the truck's history. As you know, sometimes even the owner doesn't know the history .... and that makes it even harder still - like your botched IPR wiring. Over the internet we had no way of even suggesting that you had botched wiring as a failure, although we did narrowed it down to advising you to test the wiring (or at least Jamie did IIRC). I hadn't eliminated the STC fitting as a possibility in that thread, but it was clear you had ICP and IPR issues and IMO you always fix those before you tear into the engine more deeply.

So, where I am coming from .................

You have already done the standpipe and dummy plug updates. You have a new ICP and a new IPR. You have observed and listened to the injectors w/ the valve covers off in the prior troubleshooting.

Now you have evidence of a major leak in the high pressure system - again.

Assuming that it isn't a bad IPR or IPR wiring AGAIN, and assuming the updated oil rail components were installed properly, it is now down to the STC fitting or the HPOP itself.

You have the reliable type of HPOP, but that said, they do fail occasionally. We have suggested already to air test and that is the only way to identify a failed HPOP that I know of (other than buying the expensive block off tools and trying to see what dead-head pressure you can get to).

If you still have the old STC fitting, and it hasn't failed, it can fail catastrophically in the future and crack your rear cover and then engine comes out. The STC fitting should be replaced - period.

I would replace the STC fitting and then do the air test before putting everything back together. If the pump is bad, you should hear it from an empty oil filter bowl during that air test. Some here have heard it also from the turbo oil drain, but IMO that is down the line a ways from the oil filter path. If you installed the new one-piece fitting (STC replacement fitting) wrong, you MIGHT be able to see bubbles or oil seeping from the fitting, but after replacing it, there really won't be much oil in it to leak out.

One thing I can't speak to is your tinnitus. I have it too (worse in the left ear), and I know how it can interfere w/ testing. You will just need to assess how big of an issue that is for this troubleshooting and get some help if it concerns you that you might miss something. A hose or automotive stethoscope helps a lot.

The only thing that has me concerned is that you installed a new IPR and the screen was found to be pushed in after only a few months of driving. That possibly could point to the HPOP. Thus, do the air testing.
 

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MCredman
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90 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Hey Bismic1 that's a lot of info and I plan to follow your advice. In regards to the IPR screen I'm not sure what you mean by pushed in the screen assembly had come off the IPR and stayed inside when I took IPR out but screen was in perfect shape , I'm not sure why it came off the IPR, I know I had a hard time popping one off when I replaced it after EGR delete so I know they don't come off that easy. I was wondering if I would see any leaks at oil rails if I air tested with valve covers off before I go in after the STC fitting which I'm going to pick up at Ford in just a few minutes , that way I know if I need anything else but I'm not even sure if any leaks on oil rail can be seen including injectors. That's what I was trying to ask you is if any leaks can be actually seen when air testing with valve covers off or not. Thank you for your input it is much appreciated and I do know there are no guarantees but the advice and info from you and others gives me more confidence in doing work myself. I wanted to ask you also if you have done the STC fitting using the short cut of not removing intake and taking the cover off with intake still on or do you recommend I go the long way and not take any chances ,oh and it was Diesel Tech Ron's video that got me to check the wiring at IPR in a test that would narrow it down to either PCM or short at wiring harness , Jamie agreed that a wiring issue would be at the front of list if it was known for a repair at IPR harness.The STC short cut was also Ron's video I watched a few days ago, he made it look easy.
 

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"resident smarty pants"
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4,162 Posts
I misunderstood on the IPR screen. I thought you were saying it was pushed up into the IPR.

Doing the STC fitting w/ the intake on is the way to go IMO. It is a lot easier to accidentally get parts where they don't belong w/ the intake off!

You might be able to see an oil leak at the top of the injector, at the oil rail nipple, during the air test ... but I wouldn't count on it. Listening is the best way IMO. As stated above by matthewd11, it sure seems like a large leak. I doubt that it would be an injector. That said, you can always have multiple issues at once.

When things are apart, it is wise to check everything you have access to!

I assume you will be watching the DTR video again. Just to help others out, it would be good to have a link to it in this thread before it is all over!
 

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MCredman
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90 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
I will be starting the STC tomorrow and will watch the video again tonight and tomorrow . I will put a link to it before starting . I still need the wrench to get the 3 bolts under left side of intake I was not able to read the Snap-on part number as he held it to camera. I got batteries squared away the older one failed load test so bought new one. I tested batteries and truck cranked I ran it for 30 minutes and wrote down stats so I will post them now. I shut it down after 30 minutes and then restarted three times , they were not perfect starts but took only 2 to 4 seconds each time for it to start . I also accelerated to 2500 rpm's and it was smooth all the way and even as I held it , but at idle it sounds rough I did record the motor idling if you would want to listen to it let me know .

at starting -ICP-V= 1.21 volts / VGT=75 / TFC=0.49
ICP= 931 psi / MAT=-40 / BST=0.2 to 0.4
RPM= 683 / SYNC=1 / FICM LP=14.0
IPR=31.2 % / MAP=14.0 / FICM MP-48
 

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"resident smarty pants"
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4,162 Posts
So is the IPR duty cycle still maxed out along w/ low ICP when hot? The numbers above don't look bad to me.

Bad batteries, or even one bad battery, can cause a lot of running problems so it isn't surprising that it would run better after replacing a failed one. That said, I have never seen a bad battery cause an issue with low pressure in the high pressure oil system.
 

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MCredman
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90 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Well I thought I would find the 8mm extra long wrench and 8mm ratcheting wrench that I need to get under intake to remove that cover but harder than I thought. I decided to check on possibility than my STC fitting had already been updated as the dealership in Texas where I bought my truck had replaced EGR cooler ,Oil Cooler and all the Injectors over the past 8 years and it is possible that it was updated then . I have requested all my invoices from dealer and will hopefully have them tomorrow. Don't want to tear in to motor and find that it was already done. I have invoices somewhere in my two storage units but they are stacked to the ceiling . In the meantime I am putting a link to Diesel Tech Ron's video on changing to STC without removing intake . It has its risk but the rewards are a great deal of time saved and although I am good with handling wrenches and parts removal I don't mind saying it makes me nervous . I will post results once I'm done if of coarse it has not been updated which I am thinking it has not as the standpipes and dummy plugs were not I just did them but The injectors were so who knows. here's that link.

 

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"resident smarty pants"
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4,162 Posts

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MCredman
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90 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Well I am finding out that there isn't a good place here that sells tools like extra long metric wrench or ratchet wrench .I got two of those bolts under intake by making my own extension for one my regular 8 mm wrench, but the back one and the one behind heatshield I fought . It needed to be flex head ratchet wrench long handle. I ended up buying a $75 set of regular length flex head ratchet wrenches from Sears ans after getting that one bolt the head was so loose it just flopped back and forth so you could not keep it on the bolt without holding it.Anyway I got pictures of STC but it did not look like it is the problem. Somebody look and see what you think .I got it ready to put in truck I would like opinion on the alignment I got using guides I will put up some pics if it will let me .
 

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MCredman
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90 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
WELL I'm kinda on hold right now as I just lost the yellow O-ring when I was taking it out to replace I even had my left hand index finger on opposite side of O-ring applying pressure to make sure I controlled it but that one was extremely hard to get underneath and it popped out all of a sudden and I watched go over the back big gear of camshaft .I have been using a mirror and trying to find it with no luck . I don't see how if made it past all the stuff I see down there it seems impossible and I can see a good way down inside. What are my options to drain oil and take off oil pan . Would I be able to find it that way . Man I did not need this at this point I mean I got all the bolts without an issue and silly O-ring gets me. I'm not sure what to do at this point I was just about to put pump back in and air test before closing it up as I'm not sure the STC was the leak. Any advice would be greatly appreciated otherwise I am going to proceed with oil pan removal which I have not even looked what that involves. Thank you for any help I get .
 

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MCredman
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90 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Where is everybody did you abandon me . I installed STC fitting upgrade and just air tested while I had HPOP cover off and it started gurgling air right off so I manually closed the IPR at battery and no more air at all I checked it three times and every time IPR was activated it shut air off. Only thing I need to know now is do I drain oil and drop oil pan to find the O-ring or not ? I googled it and it had answers from this forum some said it can't get back into HPOP even if after its cut up in motor and was to get past the screen on pickup tube it can't get past oil filter put I want to here that from Bismic1 , 79Jasper or one of the guys that I have conversed with .I was prepared to drop oil pan myself but decided to go ahead and finish STC first and check on what I should do from somebody who knows a lot more than I do. I hope I hear from some of you as I'm going to start putting it back together but will not start motor till I get opinion. Thanks guys
 

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"resident smarty pants"
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4,162 Posts
I wouldn't pull the oil pan for an o-ring. It shouldn't cause issues. If anything, it could blind off the oil cooler some, but I doubt it would be noticeable. I would probably drain the oil and change it after the work you just did ... even if you hadn't dropped an o-ring.

From what I could tell from your pics the installation looked ok. Sounds like a tight system w/ a good air test.

Be sure to crank w/ the starter solenoid jumper wire a few times to get oil in the system (to save batteries and FICM wear).
 

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MCredman
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90 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Cool ,I thank you once again for your help . I did not think the STC was bad enough to cause my issue but hope I am wrong about that. I was going to take turbo apart and clean unison ring and apply some anti-seize compound on it .When I did EGR delete I found the turbo was coked up so bad it took a while to get unison ring out and had to buff and clean and polish it , I was told I would need to replace it cause it was so bad but it has worked fine .I had put an anti-seize compound on it . Do you think I should clean and reapply now that I have it out, it seems to me I should just to keep it going as long as possible. It may not need it as I don't have EGR messing things up any more but just thought I should see how its doing. Let me know your thoughts on that. .I had to order another wrench online it will be here tomorrow and make it easier with that cover, so I have some time to clean turbo or should I just leave it alone since its working fine. .The $75 set I bought from Sears is junk I don't know what happened to Craftsman tools but they are not the same anymore, the flex head on the 8mm ratchet wrench took out the one bolt in back under intake and now the head just flops around making it unstable to use and that's ridiculous. I thank you so much Bismic1 for your help and input it is much appreciated.
 

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"resident smarty pants"
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4,162 Posts
I can't really help you w/ the turbo decision, having not seen it or any numbers to support doing it. The only thing that is clear to me is that if you really feel it is needed, then you don't have a better time since it is out. That isn't the same as needing it though!!

I know that Ford techs have split decisions on using anti-seize or not on the unison ring. If it is used, make it a very light coat! There is a point where the unison ring is too worn to re-use, Really that has to be your call.

As far as the EGR causing coking - well it certainly can, but it isn't the only thing that can. You can coke up a turbo vgt system even w/ an EGR delete installed. I watch my EBP, MAP, and Baro values regularly because if there is a lot of exhaust coking, the EBP sensor tube will start to plug and give you weird readings.

Lastly, I agree about craftsman tools!
 
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