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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-28-2010, 04:52 AM Thread Starter
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Fair Tax

I don't understand why this is something our government can't use.

The wealthy would still be taxed the most in a fair tax system. It would also prevent people from getting behind on their taxes....you would be getting taxed when you buy something rather than having to worry about income tax come tax time. I also think it would be better on the middle and lower classes. Income tax is a burden on America as a whole.

What is everyone's thoughts on this? What would it take to make it happen?

Jeff Dodd


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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-28-2010, 04:58 AM
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Re: Fair Tax

It will never happen, government cant stop spending as it is. Cut there spending money down and theyed have a chitfit. Government creates taxes but never removes them.

08 6.4 lots of stuff.

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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-28-2010, 10:15 AM
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Re: Fair Tax

The current tax code and laws make it much easier to control the subjects.

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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-28-2010, 03:43 PM
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Re: Fair Tax

I'm a partial believer in the Fair Tax.

The down side to the Fair Tax is that poor people spend 100% of their money on food, shelter and other necessities where-as rich people might spend as little as 10% of their income on necessities. This makes the tax highly regressive. Basically poor people are paying taxes on 100% of their income and rich people aren't even close.

On the up side it's simple and it also captures a TON of untaxed income right now that waiters, drug dealers, strippers, bartenders, etc... are abe to completely avoid.

I believe the proper solution is a flat tax rate w/ absolutely no deductions on all income. Home sales, whatever. All income gets taxed. This allows us to be taxed at the lowest possible rate and this is where half of all Federal tax receipts should come from.

The other half of Federal tax receipts should come from the "Fair Tax" otherwise known as the "Consumption Tax" and this has two effects. 1) it lowers consuption and waste, and 2) it captures all of those non income tax payers mentioned above. This would be in the form of a Federal sales tax on top of State Sales tax and could easily be as high as 20%.

We could get rid of the IRS and accountants. BTW my accountant Step-father endorses this idea as well.

I'm officially...Stroke-less.
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-28-2010, 08:38 PM
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Re: Fair Tax

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Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
I'm a partial believer in the Fair Tax.

The down side to the Fair Tax is that poor people spend 100% of their money on food, shelter and other necessities where-as rich people might spend as little as 10% of their income on necessities. This makes the tax highly regressive. Basically poor people are paying taxes on 100% of their income and rich people aren't even close.

On the up side it's simple and it also captures a TON of untaxed income right now that waiters, drug dealers, strippers, bartenders, etc... are abe to completely avoid.

I believe the proper solution is a flat tax rate w/ absolutely no deductions on all income. Home sales, whatever. All income gets taxed. This allows us to be taxed at the lowest possible rate and this is where half of all Federal tax receipts should come from.

The other half of Federal tax receipts should come from the "Fair Tax" otherwise known as the "Consumption Tax" and this has two effects. 1) it lowers consuption and waste, and 2) it captures all of those non income tax payers mentioned above. This would be in the form of a Federal sales tax on top of State Sales tax and could easily be as high as 20%.

We could get rid of the IRS and accountants. BTW my accountant Step-father endorses this idea as well.
Can't believe I just agreed 100% with Sun

But that would be too simple and secure government jobs would go away, so no that will never happen.

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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-28-2010, 09:10 PM
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Re: Fair Tax

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Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
I'm a partial believer in the Fair Tax.

The down side to the Fair Tax is that poor people spend 100% of their money on food, shelter and other necessities where-as rich people might spend as little as 10% of their income on necessities. This makes the tax highly regressive. Basically poor people are paying taxes on 100% of their income and rich people aren't even close.

On the up side it's simple and it also captures a TON of untaxed income right now that waiters, drug dealers, strippers, bartenders, etc... are abe to completely avoid.

I believe the proper solution is a flat tax rate w/ absolutely no deductions on all income. Home sales, whatever. All income gets taxed. This allows us to be taxed at the lowest possible rate and this is where half of all Federal tax receipts should come from.

The other half of Federal tax receipts should come from the "Fair Tax" otherwise known as the "Consumption Tax" and this has two effects. 1) it lowers consuption and waste, and 2) it captures all of those non income tax payers mentioned above. This would be in the form of a Federal sales tax on top of State Sales tax and could easily be as high as 20%.

We could get rid of the IRS and accountants. BTW my accountant Step-father endorses this idea as well.
You worry about the poor being taxed on 100% of their money with a national sales tax and then propose an alternative to tax it 100% coming and going?

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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-29-2010, 01:13 AM
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Re: Fair Tax

Maybe I wasn't clear Ps.

50% of Federal tax receipts (that means to pay for 1/2 of the annual budget) should be in a Flat Tax rate that is the same across all income levels. This rate would be dramatically lower than current rates. A third or less of current levels.

The other 50% of Federal tax receipts should come from a Fair Tax which is nothing but a Federal sales tax. And yes, everything would cost a lot more.

Ideally we would dramatically reduce government spending and size as well. I mean for one the IRS could go completely away. But even if government expenditures didn't change a dime this is a much more fair tax and would lower the tremendous burden on ther middle class.

The numbers you read about the rich paying so much in taxes are heavily skewed for several reasons. Many rich people 'S-Corp' themselves (or have a legitimate business) and these corporations are not in fact getting taxed at nearly the same rates as the average person. When they send all of their income to the "company" they can show their income as much lower. I know several business owners that live like very wealthy men w/ $300K boats etc and don't pay a single dime in income taxes because the "company" after write-offs just broke even, again.

The truth is that rich people often, very often are able to completely get out of paying any income taxes at all. It happens all of the time and the real tax burden rests squarely on the middle and upper middle class. A system like I proposed gets rid of most methods of cheating and makes all of the people that don't pay any income taxes at all (a full 50% of the USA population right now!) pay taxes. And this makes the rate much lower for all of us that do pay taxes. That's called real tax relief.

I'm officially...Stroke-less.
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-29-2010, 01:26 AM
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Re: Fair Tax

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Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
Maybe I wasn't clear Ps.

50% of Federal tax receipts (that means to pay for 1/2 of the annual budget) should be in a Flat Tax rate that is the same across all income levels. This rate would be dramatically lower than current rates. A third or less of current levels.

The other 50% of Federal tax receipts should come from a Fair Tax which is nothing but a Federal sales tax. And yes, everything would cost a lot more.

Ideally we would dramatically reduce government spending and size as well. I mean for one the IRS could go completely away. But even if government expenditures didn't change a dime this is a much more fair tax and would lower the tremendous burden on ther middle class.

The numbers you read about the rich paying so much in taxes are heavily skewed for several reasons. Many rich people 'S-Corp' themselves (or have a legitimate business) and these corporations are not in fact getting taxed at nearly the same rates as the average person. When they send all of their income to the "company" they can show their income as much lower. I know several business owners that live like very wealthy men w/ $300K boats etc and don't pay a single dime in income taxes because the "company" after write-offs just broke even, again.

The truth is that rich people often, very often are able to completely get out of paying any income taxes at all. It happens all of the time and the real tax burden rests squarely on the middle and upper middle class. A system like I proposed gets rid of most methods of cheating and makes all of the people that don't pay any income taxes at all (a full 50% of the USA population right now!) pay taxes. And this makes the rate much lower for all of us that do pay taxes. That's called real tax relief.
You were clear.....but as I said....the poor would have their income taxed completely.....twice

A flate rate tax on all income would tax everyone on their income which would include the poor.

A national sales tax, as you stated, would tax the poor on 100% of their income and only a portion of the rich's income.

So, your plan would tax the poor on 100% of their income twice.....not so for the rich.

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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-29-2010, 01:53 AM
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Re: Fair Tax

I disagree w/ your assesment.

First I think it is absolute horsecrap that poor people don't pay any taxes at all. I think it's unfair that a guy that makes $60K/ year w/ a huge mortgage and 4 kids to deduct doesn't pay any taxes either. And it's horsecrap that many rich people don't pay taxes. You have to keep in mind that the tax rate would be dramatically lower for everyone. And everyone would pay this dramatically lower rate on all of their income which is fair. You are looking at a rate of closer to 15% for everyone. So a poor person would be paying this low % which is fair. They contribute but it's a low rate. Once again, just over 50% of Americans currently do not pay a dime in Federal Income taxes. It's also not fair that others get punished for just simply being succesful. That's BS too. We need to encourage success. This entire tax system is overly complicated.

But this leaves a huge hole because people accept cash for services (and don't pay taxes on it), illegal immigrants often don't income taxes, drug dealers, prostitutes, strippers, bartenders, waiters, lawn care people, my tile guy, my tree guy, etc... All of these people are often or always not paying any income taxes at all. So the only way to capture them and have them pay into the system is a sizable Federal Sales Tax that also has the added benefit of naturally lowering consumption and waste. If you are that concerned that the poor are being to punished you can make a few basic needs Federal Sales tax exempt free. Like food for instance.

You know, no one wants to make the hard choices. To fix this system there will be winners and losers but the goal is that we all have a stronger America as a result. Individuals have to look beyong thier personal desires and think about fairness and improving the system for all of us.

I'm officially...Stroke-less.
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-29-2010, 02:40 AM
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Re: Fair Tax

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Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
I disagree w/ your assesment.

First I think it is absolute horsecrap that poor people don't pay any taxes at all. I think it's unfair that a guy that makes $60K/ year w/ a huge mortgage and 4 kids to deduct doesn't pay any taxes either. And it's horsecrap that many rich people don't pay taxes. You have to keep in mind that the tax rate would be dramatically lower for everyone. And everyone would pay this dramatically lower rate on all of their income which is fair. You are looking at a rate of closer to 15% for everyone. So a poor person would be paying this low % which is fair. They contribute but it's a low rate. Once again, just over 50% of Americans currently do not pay a dime in Federal Income taxes. It's also not fair that others get punished for just simply being succesful. That's BS too. We need to encourage success. This entire tax system is overly complicated.

But this leaves a huge hole because people accept cash for services (and don't pay taxes on it), illegal immigrants often don't income taxes, drug dealers, prostitutes, strippers, bartenders, waiters, lawn care people, my tile guy, my tree guy, etc... All of these people are often or always not paying any income taxes at all. So the only way to capture them and have them pay into the system is a sizable Federal Sales Tax that also has the added benefit of naturally lowering consumption and waste. If you are that concerned that the poor are being to punished you can make a few basic needs Federal Sales tax exempt free. Like food for instance.

You know, no one wants to make the hard choices. To fix this system there will be winners and losers but the goal is that we all have a stronger America as a result. Individuals have to look beyong thier personal desires and think about fairness and improving the system for all of us.
How do you disagree with my assessment? I used your logic above?

Are you now saying the poor would not pay tax on 100% of their income through a national sales tax?

If all income is taxed, how would the poor NOT be taxed twice on all of their income?

I agree, it is complete horse crap that not everyone pays taxes but to tax people twice on the same money while others are only taxed once is horse crap just the same.

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