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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 05:34 PM Thread Starter
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Free will

I didn't want to muddy up the other thread, but this was an interesting viewpoint that needed dialogue.
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Originally Posted by tater97 View Post
I agree that God reads our hearts. I have not been able to reconcile that he knows our future...given we have free will. That would be to say he created Adam and Eve knowing they would fail. So he made a mistake?
I am simply following the reasoning given.
Interesting and valid viewpoint, here is my viewpoint.

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I have not been able to reconcile that he knows our future...given we have free will.
Yes he gave us free will and knowing human nature he gave man the ability to do things as Man sees fit, hence the stumbling blocks he places before us, some people just need multiple stumbling blocks before they heed the warnings. If God had made man so that man would worship God automatically what would it prove, instead he gave man the ability to make choices and come to God on his own free will not because he was programmed to do so.
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That would be to say he created Adam and Eve knowing they would fail. So he made a mistake?
Not a mistake but it had to happen in order for there to be the PLAN of salvation.

David Lott
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 06:22 PM
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Re: Free will

It can be argued that the greatest power God gave to mankind is the power of "choice". He gave us the capacity of knowledge, and with that he gave us the power to choose how we want to use that knowledge.

The "plan of salvation" can also be argued, as it has been for centuries. Hence the different factions of Christian religions. It's all based on personal interpretation.

So we have a choice of how we want to live our lives, and we have a choice on how we choose to serve, worship, or even not to believe in God.

Curtis
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 06:58 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Free will

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Originally Posted by Pocket View Post
It can be argued that the greatest power God gave to mankind is the power of "choice". He gave us the capacity of knowledge, and with that he gave us the power to choose how we want to use that knowledge.

The "plan of salvation" can also be argued, as it has been for centuries. Hence the different factions of Christian religions. It's all based on personal interpretation.

So we have a choice of how we want to live our lives, and we have a choice on how we choose to serve, worship, or even not to believe in God.
Curtis
my post was made for a discussion assuming there is a God and that we believe there is a God.
What he originally posted and what I posted have nothing to do with religion rather our beliefs in what the Bible says.

David Lott
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No purpose no happiness, know purpose know happiness ---> Happiness is a direction not a destination.
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 07:15 PM
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Re: Free will

God created people with the capacity to evaluate questions and decisions and decide for themselves.
Being God, he knows (all religions I know of agree that God knows everything) what the possible outcomes of each decision that every person makes, and how they affect every other person. Just because he knows something does not mean he causes it to happen.
Are there certain decisions that have more evident consequences? Yes. And since some decisions are more evident than others, it stands to reason that most if not all of those junctures have godly and ungodly possible outcomes.

Related to that, some people thank that something that causes grief is something that God 'let' happen. But often that is not true. Quite often God knows what will happen if you have to make a decision down the road based on (a) decision(s) you already made. But, because of one of those decisions, you now can't have (or have to have) something else.
And other times God knows that someone you will have contact with down the road won't be able to make it through a hard time without help. Unfortunately (from our perspective) in order for you to help, you have to go through the same thing. But, God, knowing that you are strong enough to get through the hardship, puts you through it, knowing the outcome before it happens, even with all the decisions along the way.

Maybe it's because I had a really bad struggle with depression when I was in high school, but regardless of the reason, I know of two people in particular that had trouble dealing with depression that I was able to help.
The interesting part of that is that at the time, I did not know they were struggling with depression. In fact, one I had not met until after the battle was won.
So had I decided to off myself in HS, who knows what would have happened in those two other families, not to mention my own.

Go ARMY!
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 07:36 PM
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Re: Free will

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Originally Posted by Powerstroke Racer View Post
Curtis
my post was made for a discussion assuming there is a God and that we believe there is a God.
What he originally posted and what I posted have nothing to do with religion rather our beliefs in what the Bible says.
Ahhh, right on David. I was just speaking in terms of generality when it comes to free will.

But you're right, that free will does encompass how we interpret the Bible and draw beliefs from the Bible... including the belief of God's plan for us.

Did God give us the freedom of choice, knowing what choices we plan to make for ourselves? Or did God give us the freedom of choice, not knowing what decisions we will make for our own lives, but knowing that at some point he will hold us accountable?

For me, it's difficult to draw any single conclusion and call it the right conclusion. There are so many "what if's", and they come into play any time we try to pinpoint our beliefs on one idea or another. For me personally, I don't try to answer that question because I don't know the answer. I can't speak for God, and I don't think anyone on this earth can. People have tried many times in the past to claim that they know God's will, but we really don't. So instead, I think the best we can do is make the best choices we can given the circumstances, and have faith that they are the right choices. At the same time, have understanding that any other person is free to make their own choices, and they deal with their own consequences.... good or bad.

Is that more on track of what you were trying to discuss, or am I still off? I just want to try and discuss the point you wanted to make with this thread.

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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 07:43 PM
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Re: Free will

Also in terms of the other thread (I know you didn't want to muck it up, so I'm posting here), the debate goes back and forth as far as suicide and salvation.

So I have a question: If God can forgive all sins, then where does that leave suicide?

It's a very difficult question, because I personally don't think there is a right answer. We can use the same Bible yet draw different conclusions as to what we might "think" God will do with those who commit suicide. The simple fact is we just don't know for sure. We would take comfort in being able to know our destiny when we die, or those of our friends and family as well. That's probably the single biggest reason for trying to answer that question.... self comfort.

My opinion of course.

Curtis
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 07:55 PM
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Re: Free will

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Originally Posted by Pocket View Post
Also in terms of the other thread (I know you didn't want to muck it up, so I'm posting here), the debate goes back and forth as far as suicide and salvation.

So I have a question: If God can forgive all sins, then where does that leave suicide?

It's a very difficult question, because I personally don't think there is a right answer. We can use the same Bible yet draw different conclusions as to what we might "think" God will do with those who commit suicide. The simple fact is we just don't know for sure. We would take comfort in being able to know our destiny when we die, or those of our friends and family as well. That's probably the single biggest reason for trying to answer that question.... self comfort.

My opinion of course.
I agree with this 100%, I think each suicide situation is different and it's between them and God. In these times I do pray for people to stay strong, and tough it out.

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Besides there is absolutely no way to idiot proof something, since they are always coming out with better idiots by the day
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 08:24 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Free will

Curtis, I think we are on the same page.

David Lott
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Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want!!!
No purpose no happiness, know purpose know happiness ---> Happiness is a direction not a destination.
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 08:28 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Free will

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I agree with this 100%, I think each suicide situation is different and it's between them and God. In these times I do pray for people to stay strong, and tough it out.
Kinda of the same scenario where a doctor decides to give medication to end life for one that is in pain and does not look as though they can recover.
Did the doctor murder the guy?
The Bible says that we are to have compassion and help the other person not help them out of their misery.

David Lott
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Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want!!!
No purpose no happiness, know purpose know happiness ---> Happiness is a direction not a destination.
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 08:34 PM
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Re: Free will

David, I think we are also on the same page, I was referring to once suicide has happened, not whether or not someone should take their own life. I think suicide is a sin. I had meant to say that whether or not said person ends up in Heaven is between them and God. your words have been inspiring to me for a while now. thank you.

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Besides there is absolutely no way to idiot proof something, since they are always coming out with better idiots by the day
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