Celebrating the Declarationof Independence - PowerStrokeNation : Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
 
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post #1 of 6 (permalink) Old 07-05-2009, 01:35 PM Thread Starter
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Celebrating the Declaration of Independence

I should have had this out yesterday but was too busy at the lake.
obama see such documents as the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution as restraining to him and his statist agenda because it does not allow for the redistribution of wealth and other "Changes."
He has said, and I am paraphrasing, "the constitution is a flawed charter of negative liberties." NEGATIVE LIBERTIES???!!!! These documents were drawn for protection Against powermongers like obama!!
The Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence are CHARTERS OF FREEDOM! and in todays world when our freedoms are being taken more and more each day we should be more active than ever.
From our founding fathers...

"That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. "

It is time to stand up and fight against such mind boggling costly and destructive legislation as cap and trade and socialized medicine.
These alone will break America and will destroy any kind of recovery from the current recession and bring about the worlds worst depression in history!
We The People have won before we can do it again!
"Yes We Can!"
I hope others are with me because now is the time before it is too late. Stand up and fight against the despotism before it is too late! The destruction is happening at a rapid pace. Why do you think they are in such a rush to get things passed like cap and trade a 1500 page bill that was not read by the majority of congress and had the last 300 pages added at 3 am in the morning of the day of the vote!
How's that for hope and change!????
W

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post #2 of 6 (permalink) Old 07-05-2009, 03:26 PM
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Re: Celebrating the Declarationof Independence

FALSE FALSE FALSE FALSE FALSE!!!!

Wow talk about a complete and blatent lie that you stumbled upon, and you got suckered right into it without RESEARCHING to find out what Obama ACTUALLY said.

Obama NEVER said the word FLAWED in this sentence that you quoted: "the constitution is a flawed charter of negative liberties."

His ACTUAL interview (in 2001 I might add, something you forgot to mention Larry) said this:
"It didnít break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the founding fathers in the Constitution, at least as its been interpreted and Warren Court interpreted in the same way, that generally the Constitution is a charter of negative liberties. Says what the states canít do to you. Says what the Federal government canít do to you, but doesnít say what the Federal government or State government must do on your behalf."

First, your post is focusing on the point of "negative liberties". If you were to actually research what that term means, and how it's applied from people such as Loch, Hobbs, and Adam Smith (English philosophers who had a strong influence on our founding fathers), you'll find out that the term "negative liberties" takes on a whole new meaning.

Negative liberties refers to the concept of "freedom from interference by others". What it means is the Constitution tells our government what it can't do, and not what it's obligated to do for you. For example, our government cannot infringe on our rights to practice religion. At the same time, our government is not supposed to provide a religion for us.

Positive liberties is the concept of what a government is supposed to do for it's people, or what the government is obligated to provide. This is the concept that Marx, Stalin, and others support, as they established a form of government that provides for it's people, rather than the people providing for themselves. This is opposite of the United States, which grants freedom by not interfering. Our government doesn't "provide" freedom, it stays out of the way of our already existing freedoms. That is the concept of our Constitution. Unfortunately, our government doesn't always follow this concept well, and there are problems existing today, which is the point of Obama's interview.

Now, back to Obama's 2001 interview.... in this interview he was talking about the civil rights movement, and how there are many unresolved issues that we still deal with today. His specific statement about negative liberties refers to the court system, and how it remains constrained to the constitution by not interfering with individual liberties, and not imposing "state controlled freedoms" on its citizens. In actuality, Obama's interview was supportive of the constitution, and took a very conservative approach to how to address civil liberties. I say conservative approach, because according to the view of negative liberties, the government is in no way entitled to provide for its citizens. After all, in Obama's actual quote, he mentioned "essential constraints". Apparently, Obama does believe in the Constitution after all.

Unfortunately, in your post Larry, whoever wrote that was 1) completely ignorant of the meaning of "negative liberty" and it's influence on the writing of our Constitution, and 2) was a blatent liar by inserting the word "flawed" into Obama's statement.

Next time do some research before posting.

Curtis
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post #3 of 6 (permalink) Old 07-05-2009, 04:00 PM
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Re: Celebrating the Declarationof Independence

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Originally Posted by Pocket View Post
Now, back to Obama's 2001 interview.... in this interview he was talking about the civil rights movement, and how there are many unresolved issues that we still deal with today. His specific statement about negative liberties refers to the court system, and how it remains constrained to the constitution by not interfering with individual liberties, and not imposing "state controlled freedoms" on its citizens. In actuality, Obama's interview was supportive of the constitution, and took a very conservative approach to how to address civil liberties. I say conservative approach, because according to the view of negative liberties, the government is in no way entitled to provide for its citizens. After all, in Obama's actual quote, he mentioned "essential constraints". Apparently, Obama does believe in the Constitution after all.

I really try to stay away from political crap, but this whole idea of left over issues really makes me very angry. Does anyone think or feel that a big part of why we still have these "unresolved issues" is because people want them that way? It's been proven time and again through history that a divided people are easier to manipulate and control than united people. Our present "representatives" do everything they possibly can to divide us. Rich vs poor, white vs everyone, male vs female, Rep vs Dem, all to get us fighting with each other so they can sit in the state capitals, and Washington and do things that benefit them, not us!

There is a very easy ways to make everyone equal, do it. Take the race stuff off any government documents, give no special deals to anyone based off of anything other than their needs, or their abilities. No! We have this fund, that fund, this special interest group, that lobbying group, the ACLU, the NAACP. All of these items DIVIDE this country, not unite. Racism is acceptable as long as it is racist towards the majority. How can we remove it from our society without accepting each and every individual equally as a human?

For the second part in red, I would be very happy if the governement would not provide us personally with a damn thing and let's do it old school. Like in the days when someone had a problem, and turned to those around them in the community, their church, their friends, or their family for support. How we do it on this forum, reaching out to other members when someone is in need. The rest of the community is happy and joyous to help, it makes us feel good to help someone. This country ,and a lot of others, have created this reliance on the government to advance their (the government) agendas. We need to get back to the one place that all freedoms come from, and our founding fathers made reference to it in EVERY document, God.

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post #4 of 6 (permalink) Old 07-05-2009, 04:12 PM
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Re: Celebrating the Declarationof Independence

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Originally Posted by 02BigD View Post
I really try to stay away from political crap, but this whole idea of left over issues really makes me very angry. Does anyone think or feel that a big part of why we still have these "unresolved issues" is because people want them that way? It's been proven time and again through history that a divided people are easier to manipulate and control than united people. Our present "representatives" do everything they possibly can to divide us. Rich vs poor, white vs everyone, male vs female, Rep vs Dem, all to get us fighting with each other so they can sit in the state capitals, and Washington and do things that benefit them, not us!

There is a very easy ways to make everyone equal, do it. Take the race stuff off any government documents, give no special deals to anyone based off of anything other than their needs, or their abilities. No! We have this fund, that fund, this special interest group, that lobbying group, the ACLU, the NAACP. All of these items DIVIDE this country, not unite. Racism is acceptable as long as it is racist towards the majority. How can we remove it from our society without accepting each and every individual equally as a human?
I agree that the whole division of people based on race, politics, etc hurts us more than anything else. People do not need preferential treatment based on the color of the skin or what dangles between their legs. While I don't think it's a big government conspiracy to keep us apart, there continues to be damaging government legislation left over from the civil rights era (ie affirmative action).

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Originally Posted by 02BigD View Post
We need to get back to the one place that all freedoms come from, and our founding fathers made reference to it in EVERY document, God.
This is probably the only part of your post I really don't agree with. After all, God is never mentioned in the Constitution. And there is a very specific reason why (that's a whole other thread entirely, and it's just a few threads down the list if anyone wants to read it).

Curtis
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post #5 of 6 (permalink) Old 07-05-2009, 05:52 PM
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Re: Celebrating the Declarationof Independence

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Originally Posted by Pocket View Post
I agree that the whole division of people based on race, politics, etc hurts us more than anything else. People do not need preferential treatment based on the color of the skin or what dangles between their legs. While I don't think it's a big government conspiracy to keep us apart, there continues to be damaging government legislation left over from the civil rights era (ie affirmative action).

As far as I'm concerned, we're saying the same thing, differently.

This is probably the only part of your post I really don't agree with. After all, God is never mentioned in the Constitution. And there is a very specific reason why (that's a whole other thread entirely, and it's just a few threads down the list if anyone wants to read it).
God is mentioned throughout the founding documents as being the giver of want is entitled to man in regards to freedom, right vs wrong, treating each other, etc. I went a little strong with every, so let me rephrase. Most documents reference God as stated above.

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post #6 of 6 (permalink) Old 07-05-2009, 09:23 PM
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Re: Celebrating the Declarationof Independence

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Originally Posted by 02BigD
As far as I'm concerned, we're saying the same thing, differently.
I'm glad you noticed that. Now if only Larry, Northshore, and a few others would too. They would find that I'm actually a rather conservative person with many of the same views as what they have (and I don't vote democrat either). However I do try to research a few things first before believing them wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, they seem to believe that thinking for yourself is "liberal talk" and it's something that only a "democrat" would do.

It's a big ocean, and there's a lot of fish out there. When a worm is dangling in front of your nose, some fish eat it hook, line, and sinker without thinking. Others sit back and question: why is a worm on a hook in the middle of the ocean?

I try as often as I can to be that second fish.

Curtis
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