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post #1 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-17-2008, 10:47 PM Thread Starter
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water for fuel

has anybody heard of this? it looks like a gimmick or some kind of 1970 type bubbliezer. what do you guys think?
http://water4gas.com/2books.htm?hop=sciguy40

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post #2 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-17-2008, 11:39 PM
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Re: water for fuel

I have spend countless hour working on this... Really more like 10 hours per week for about 10 weeks but most have been research... I had a cell producing 1.2 LPM which is not bad but for a 7.3L like ours you would need about 4-6 lpm... I think it could work but not to the extreme some people make it to be. Maybe a 15-20% increase but I have no data to back this up... to make it efficient it would have to be a big unit.

It will take power to generate the HHO but hopefully the increase in combustion efficiency plus the added combustible would make up for the energy it take to make the HHO and then spare some to contribute to MPG improvement. try www.hydrogengarage.com They have a bunch of free info.

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post #3 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-20-2008, 12:54 AM
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Re: water for fuel

Quote:
Originally Posted by INFOCUSHAULER View Post
I have spend countless hour working on this... Really more like 10 hours per week for about 10 weeks but most have been research... I had a cell producing 1.2 LPM which is not bad but for a 7.3L like ours you would need about 4-6 lpm... I think it could work but not to the extreme some people make it to be. Maybe a 15-20% increase but I have no data to back this up... to make it efficient it would have to be a big unit.

It will take power to generate the HHO but hopefully the increase in combustion efficiency plus the added combustible would make up for the energy it take to make the HHO and then spare some to contribute to MPG improvement. try www.hydrogengarage.com They have a bunch of free info.
are you going to make a bigger cell? Or do you feel it is not worth the time required to do it?

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post #4 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-20-2008, 02:50 AM
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Re: water for fuel

Snake oil. Pure and simple snake oil.

The problem with all these claims about running cars on water is that you must separate the hydrogen and the oxygen somehow. Doing so requires a certain amount of energy to be expended. In this case, they're using electricity to do that work for them. That means in order to get your fuel from water, you have to first process it with electricity, bringing a cost into the equation. Your fuel bill will just be paid to the power company instead.

Water is the least energetic combination of hydrogen and oxygen. You can think of water as the "ash" left over from burning hydrogen. Two hydrogen atoms at high temperatures in the presence of an oxygen atom will bond, creating flame in the process. You can't then burn this molecule called water. Try it some time. Light a match and stick it in some water. Doesn't burn. You can think of it like trying to light up the wood ash in the bottom of your fire place. It simply won't catch because it's in an ash state. You need fresh wood to supply the atoms and molecules that will bond with the oxygen in the air in order to create flame. Once it's bonded, it's used up and you'll have to expend a lot of energy to break those bonds. The amount of energy that must be expended to do this is greater than the amount of energy that will be released when you burn them again. The laws of thermodynamics will not be denied.

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post #5 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-20-2008, 01:44 PM
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Re: water for fuel

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Originally Posted by Alan Hicks View Post
Snake oil. Pure and simple snake oil.

The problem with all these claims about running cars on water is that you must separate the hydrogen and the oxygen somehow. Doing so requires a certain amount of energy to be expended. In this case, they're using electricity to do that work for them. That means in order to get your fuel from water, you have to first process it with electricity, bringing a cost into the equation. Your fuel bill will just be paid to the power company instead.

Water is the least energetic combination of hydrogen and oxygen. You can think of water as the "ash" left over from burning hydrogen. Two hydrogen atoms at high temperatures in the presence of an oxygen atom will bond, creating flame in the process. You can't then burn this molecule called water. Try it some time. Light a match and stick it in some water. Doesn't burn. You can think of it like trying to light up the wood ash in the bottom of your fire place. It simply won't catch because it's in an ash state. You need fresh wood to supply the atoms and molecules that will bond with the oxygen in the air in order to create flame. Once it's bonded, it's used up and you'll have to expend a lot of energy to break those bonds. The amount of energy that must be expended to do this is greater than the amount of energy that will be released when you burn them again. The laws of thermodynamics will not be denied.
so you tried it and can attest from experience that you get no gains from the systems they offer? I took chemistry too, I do understand your points. What I also learnd from all the science was experimintation. Sure there were no scientific journal refernces on it to be found...but how about using solar to fuel the elctrolisis. Pretty clean
Do a search for solar produced hydrogen.

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post #6 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-20-2008, 01:59 PM
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Re: water for fuel

check this guy out.
Stan Meyer - hydrogen oxygen ( HHO ) - Zero Point Energy

His electrolisis process is baffling even scienists, no joke.

1994 F-700 Cummins 5.9 12v and Arbortech chip body

1999 International 4900 DT466E w/Allison auto, flatbed 60' rear mount altec am855 boom.

2001 F-350 7.3 4x4 reg cab, single shots, BTS trans,
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2006 F-350 6.0 4x4 cc lariat, 20" stock wheels with toyo at's....waiting for studs and all that.
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post #7 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-20-2008, 04:56 PM
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Re: water for fuel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Hicks View Post
Snake oil. Pure and simple snake oil.

The problem with all these claims about running cars on water is that you must separate the hydrogen and the oxygen somehow. Doing so requires a certain amount of energy to be expended. In this case, they're using electricity to do that work for them. That means in order to get your fuel from water, you have to first process it with electricity, bringing a cost into the equation. Your fuel bill will just be paid to the power company instead.

Water is the least energetic combination of hydrogen and oxygen. You can think of water as the "ash" left over from burning hydrogen. Two hydrogen atoms at high temperatures in the presence of an oxygen atom will bond, creating flame in the process. You can't then burn this molecule called water. Try it some time. Light a match and stick it in some water. Doesn't burn. You can think of it like trying to light up the wood ash in the bottom of your fire place. It simply won't catch because it's in an ash state. You need fresh wood to supply the atoms and molecules that will bond with the oxygen in the air in order to create flame. Once it's bonded, it's used up and you'll have to expend a lot of energy to break those bonds. The amount of energy that must be expended to do this is greater than the amount of energy that will be released when you burn them again. The laws of thermodynamics will not be denied.
What he said.
Pay me now, pay me later. Besides, if it DID work, how dangerous would that be having raw hydrogen, and raw oxygen in the same little jar or bottle? hmmmmmm
what was that name again? hindenburg? No such thing as a free lunch.

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post #8 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-20-2008, 07:51 PM
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Re: water for fuel

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Originally Posted by frashdog View Post
so you tried it and can attest from experience that you get no gains from the systems they offer? I took chemistry too, I do understand your points.
No I have not personally tested it, and I actually failed chemistry. However, I aced physics and understand thermodynamics much better than many mechanical engineers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frashdog View Post
What I also learnd from all the science was experimintation. Sure there were no scientific journal refernces on it to be found...but how about using solar to fuel the elctrolisis. Pretty clean
Do a search for solar produced hydrogen.
Currently solar energy is limited in the amount of wattage it can produce to the point that it's simply not economical. Your up front investment in solar tech would never be recovered by using that energy to split water in electrolysis. Even if solar power was much much cheaper, it would be more practical to outfit your car with batteries and an electric motor than to waste energy in the electrolysis process.

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post #9 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-20-2008, 08:56 PM
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Re: water for fuel

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Originally Posted by Alan Hicks View Post
No I have not personally tested it, and I actually failed chemistry. However, I aced physics and understand thermodynamics much better than many mechanical engineers.



Currently solar energy is limited in the amount of wattage it can produce to the point that it's simply not economical. Your up front investment in solar tech would never be recovered by using that energy to split water in electrolysis. Even if solar power was much much cheaper, it would be more practical to outfit your car with batteries and an electric motor than to waste energy in the electrolysis process.
so you think that guy on youtube is a load?

1994 F-700 Cummins 5.9 12v and Arbortech chip body

1999 International 4900 DT466E w/Allison auto, flatbed 60' rear mount altec am855 boom.

2001 F-350 7.3 4x4 reg cab, single shots, BTS trans,
35" toyo mt's on black 18" KMC addicts

2006 F-350 6.0 4x4 cc lariat, 20" stock wheels with toyo at's....waiting for studs and all that.
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post #10 of 64 (permalink) Old 05-21-2008, 12:47 AM
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Re: water for fuel

Wow! where in the hell have I been Can we run a setup like this in a diesel engine?

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