5r110 Behind a '00 5.4? - PowerStrokeNation : Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
 
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post #1 of 8 (permalink) Old 08-09-2012, 03:58 PM Thread Starter
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5r110 Behind a '00 5.4?

I know anything is possible but how hard would it be to switch out the 4r100 for the 5r110 in a '00 F-250 with the 5.4? I think the extra gear would make this truck seem less gutless. Your thoughts?

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'02 F-250 RCLB 5.4 XL Plow truck
05 F-250 SCSB 6.0 XLT Plow truck

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post #2 of 8 (permalink) Old 08-09-2012, 04:45 PM
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Re: 5r110 Behind a '00 5.4?

Bolting it up is a no brainer. The bolt pattern is the same, but it's longer so you will have to shorten the driveshaft on a 4x2 and lengthen one and shorten the other on a 4x4.

Then you'll need software. If you also install an '05 engine, PCM, and wiring harness you can ignore the rest of this post.

It's WAY harder to make software shift a TorqShift than a#4R100, due to the design of the two transmissions.

The#4R100#is an all non-synchronous design. This means that for each upshift all that happens is a clutch is applied. All you need to do is control the pressure to the oncoming clutch and you're all set.

The TorqShift is MUCH more complicated. The 1-2 and 5-6 shifts are the same, they are non-synchronous and all you need to do is control the pressure of the#OD#clutch. The other shifts are the problem.

The 2-3 is a swap shift. This is a special catagory of difficult shift. I believe Ford is the only trans maker in the world that still does swap shifts. Others have put swap shift transmissions in production and then replaced them within a few years. To make a swap shift the TorqShift needs to release the#OD#clutch to downshift the#OD#gearset while applying the intermediate clutch to upshift the Simpson planetary gearset. This is an upshift and a downshift occuring at the same time in the same trans. From my experience these two shifts MUST complete within 30 milliseconds of each other or it's going to feel awful. If the#OD#releases too soon the engine speed will flare. The amount of flare is dependant on how much sooner it completes. If it completes before the intermediate has enough capacity the trans goes back to first gear! Then it has to make a 1-3 shift. A few#WOT#1-3 shifts means the trans comes out to replace the intermediate clutch. Been there, done that. If the#OD#releases after the intermediate comes on you end up in 4th gear (1.09:1 ratio) then downshift back to third gear (1.54:1 ratio.) Either way it's really bad.

Now if you made it though that you need to make a 3-5 shift. 4th gear is the 1.09:1 ratio that really isn't used. The 3-5 is a synchronous shift. It's timing requirements are about the same as the swap shift, but there is no downshift. To make the shift the intermediate clutch has to release while the direct clutch applies. If the intermediate releases too soon you get an engine speed flare. If the intermediate releases too late you get a tie up. A tie up is when all three pieces of the planetary gear set are held from turning. This means the output shaft of the trans STOPS. That's not a pleasant thing to have happen when you're at#WOT#making a 3-5 shift. You can lock the wheels on an upshift! I've done this, too. You can also break expen$ive parts doing a tie up. Been there, done that, too.

Now start thinking of the combination shifts that can happen. How about cruising at 55 MPH behind some slow poke on a two lane road? A passing zone opens and you floor it. Now you may want to go from 6th to 3rd gear. You need to release the direct clutch and apply the intermediate. That's a synchronous shift in reverse.

As you can see from just these few examples it isn't a trivial task to make one of these transmissions shift. It's what I did at Ford for quite a few years, three of them working on the TorqShift. I'd be really surprised if anyone makes a controller for the TorqShift that works really well. I think someone could make one that does some basic shifting, but getting one so that it shifts at least as well as a stock trans is going to be a HUGE task.

Mark
Former Ford Automatic Transmission Engineer

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson
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post #3 of 8 (permalink) Old 08-09-2012, 09:55 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 5r110 Behind a '00 5.4?

Thank you Mark, i had no idea the new trannys were so complacated. I guess thats why i havnt heard anyone doing this swap. Ill just stick it out with the 4r100 for now, thanks again for all the info!

L99 SCSB 7.3 4x4 AEM intake, 5" straight pipe, 6pos Gearhead chip, Autometer gauges, Firestone bags, ATD Built tranny, Smoked lights, 15% tint, WW, Mr. Bobs boots & hoses, Leveled, Moto Metals
'02 F-250 RCLB 5.4 XL Plow truck
05 F-250 SCSB 6.0 XLT Plow truck

Remember kids, chrome wont get you home
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post #4 of 8 (permalink) Old 08-11-2012, 02:34 PM
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Hey thanks for the lesson that should be a stickie explaining how it works

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post #5 of 8 (permalink) Old 08-11-2012, 02:39 PM
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Re: 5r110 Behind a '00 5.4?

My brain hurts

thx Mark

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post #6 of 8 (permalink) Old 08-11-2012, 06:14 PM
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Re: 5r110 Behind a '00 5.4?

Think how mine felt making that stuff work every day!

Mark
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“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson
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post #7 of 8 (permalink) Old 08-11-2012, 06:20 PM
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Re: 5r110 Behind a '00 5.4?



that is the difference you can make it work and I can just break it

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post #8 of 8 (permalink) Old 08-11-2012, 09:19 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 5r110 Behind a '00 5.4?

Mark I can't imagine making something as complex as that transmission.

L99 SCSB 7.3 4x4 AEM intake, 5" straight pipe, 6pos Gearhead chip, Autometer gauges, Firestone bags, ATD Built tranny, Smoked lights, 15% tint, WW, Mr. Bobs boots & hoses, Leveled, Moto Metals
'02 F-250 RCLB 5.4 XL Plow truck
05 F-250 SCSB 6.0 XLT Plow truck

Remember kids, chrome wont get you home
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