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Towing Tunes

8K views 31 replies 8 participants last post by  Lt.Dan 
#1 ·
Hey guys, I've been thinking about it alot lately, and I'm trying to wrap my head around this, maybe you guys can answer it.

When I tow my trailer, I tow in my 40hp Heavy Tow tune from Swamps, now this tune is a slouch compared to my hot street or extreme tune, but it allows me to keep my foot at the metal in 3rd without my EGTs getting over 1250*, which is quite nice. But it's quite slow and I have to push the truck very hard

So now im thinking how I get better at pulling these hills, and not needing to push it so hard. And I thought about injectors and a turbo to do this, but then I thought, I'm only using my 40hp tune, so the injectors are far from being tapped out right? I just need someway to keep the EGTs lower, so i can push it harder in an 80hp or higher tune right?

I already have an intercooler, and WW2, but what is the next step? Water meth? Better turbo? Better tuning? Or am I thinking about it wrong, and I do need different injectors to step up?
 
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#3 ·
I have 4.10s with 35" (33.75" tires with weight on them), and a heavily modified E4OD from DieselSite.

I'm thinking about stepping up to 4.30s, but I'm afraid it's going to be just too much gearing and is going to scream the entire time
 
#5 ·
I have 410s too but with the bigger tires my ratio is down to 3.92 is what formula shows. I do believe the 430s to 456s will help pull hills and mountains and I agree would scream down the highway. 7.3 technology is old school.
Also it's been suggested to add electric fuel pump to maximize injectors. These old trucks are probably not getting full fuel due to screens in tanks getting stopped up and the slow mechanical fuel pump. Eliminating that would save fuel leaks in the valley. That is probably my next move. Wintering in Arizona so no mountain pulling for awhile. Let me know what you decide and how it turns out as I will let you know too.


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#6 ·
Lt. Dan,

I haven't heard good things about the Gear Vendors units.... I wish I had book-marked the sites that I was reading. As I recall, the overdrive units were really designed for high output cars then later were adapted to trucks. It seems that the units are more prone to premature failure when put behind a truck that is towing. I considered one for my truck prior to swapping the transmission. I had a friend that bought one that needed a rebuild but after looking at it he decided that it wouldn't hold up in his truck either. I'll like to find a tune that mimics the International 235 hp program that put out 620 ft-lbs of torque at 1400 rpm. Just curious - how much torque does your tow tune allow?

Cj
 
#7 ·
The Gear Vendors were originally designed for big 5 ton trucks, but were later adapted and scaled down to fit in pickup trucks. They have certain things they recommend not doing, such as exhaust or engine braking. They also recommend you dont try and back up a hill with a heavy load. Seems these units are good at putting force on the drive side of all the gears, but not so much on the coast side.

I have heard of their hit and miss reliability also, which makes me weary, and damn their expensive, but jeez would it be nice to have gear splitting and the double overdrive with some very low rearend gears...
 
#8 ·
Lt.Dan,

Interesting... hadn't heard that about Gear Vendors. Now if you could find one that had been behind a 5 ton... I hear you on the gearing, though, as that is what pushed me to load a 10 speed in my truck. More gears :).

Cj
 
#10 ·
Well the 10 speed has come with its own challenges... I had to learn to shift all over again. There is also adjusting the clutch as I didn't get the auto adjust clutch setup. Cab is noisier as well so at some point I'll need to add some sound proofing.
 
#11 ·
Yeah and I want an automatic. I'm too lazy lol.

Back on track, does anybody know the answer to my original question? Is it worth it trying to chase after using my current AB (130cc) injectors to the full extent? Or step up in injector and turbo size and get it over with?
 
#12 ·
I'm no expert in pulling large mountain passes, but i have towed @10K with the truck in my profile pic up some pretty steep hill country grades here in TX. I had swamps tuning and an intercooler, not sure if it being a banks cooler matters but it was in the truck when I bought it. I'm not sure what my tunes we're rated at as dave at swamps just named them light tow and heavy tow, but my truck is a federal truck so I have the smaller 90 cc single shot AA code injectors and just a stock rebuilt trans with a large cooler and racer X converter. Stock turbo, stock 4.10 gears, 35" tires egts around the same temp pulling 10K up a 7% grade at about 80, now I was in the floor but only to maintain the 80mph.

I know kind of a bunch of useless info I think I'm more or less thinking out loud there, LOL. You didn't mention anything about your exhaust, you may want to consider, not sure if you can get away with straight pipe in California, but definitely get a BFH and a full 3" downpipe and lose the factory smashed cobra head, if you can a good 4" downpipe back exhaust and ditch the cat, if you can't ditch it at the very least replace it with a new one. The factory exhaust on the obs trucks is a HUGE choke on the engine.

Another thing I don't know how much it would help with egt or power when towing but I did notice a big change for the good in general driveability when I did the e-fuel coversion on my truck. I hadn't really towed too much at least not too heavy up any real grades on the factory fuel system. I think before you do injectors I would recommend a turbo, the WW and WW2 are a vast improvement or the stock wheel, but you will get more air and vastly drop your egts by going with a different turbo.

I would recommned checking out kcturbo.com I purchased one of their turbos about 2 years ago and let me say, the truck is completely different, the biggest advantage is they haven't forgot about the 7.3 and they make a completely drop in ball bearing turbo for the obs, basically a GTP38R garret powermax but for the obs trucks. They actually have some now that are pretty much a reverse rotation SXE turbo for the 7.3, I got mine before the SXE so I don't have the newest technology but it made a huge difference in the way the truck tows as well as spooling A LOT faster.

So after all this rambling I would recommend that you check out the turbos from KC and consider doing some work to the exhaust to uncork that beast before you spend more money on injectors and tuning that I don't think you really need,at least not yet.
 
#13 ·
Oh trust me, I've done all that and more, 3" DP, 4" straight pipe, T500 hpop, deleted turbo pedestal w/ deleted ebpv valve, WW2 and 360* bearing upgrade, bellowed up-pipes, FUGA E Fuel, 7/16" chromoly pushrod, built DieselSite E4OD, etc etc. I have pretty much tapped out the entire setup and the only thing left is valve springs/injectors/turbo.

I pull about 13,000lbs, and it screams doing it, I just wanna make it easier on it i guess.

Edit: I have a trip planned on Nov 9th, I think I'm going to just order a 1.0 exhaust housing, and the KC exhaust turbine and see how she does with that. Will be way nicer to get the power in the lower end.
 
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#14 ·
The absolute best towing set up that I ever had on my OBS Was nearly your exact same set up with the addition of stage one injectors. Even with the stock OBS turbo they still shine. Power was not throw you back in the seat and make you scared for your life, but it was smooth and constant.

The great part about it is that you’re not pushing enough power or pressures to require head studs, valve springs, or pushrods.

A built transmission, stage ones, Modified hpop, fuel system, supporting mods, and good tunes is all around my most favorite 7.3 set up. And that is with 35 inch tires and 410 gears.

Are you running stock California injectors or the federal 49? The most hp you can get squeezed out or the stock non-Cali injectors is maybe 300 to the wheels. When the stock injectors are worked to their max, they’ll put out more heat than a set of stage ones and all hard parts remaining the same.
 
#15 ·
I'm running Cali AB injectors, which by the 2.3hp per cc rule, I should be limited right around 290-300hp.

If I'm doing an injector upgrade, I feel it unnecessary to only go 30cc more, and if I'm doing injectors, I want to step up to a 238/80 or 250/100, I'm not afraid of the cost, so long as it works. Hell I'm 5x into this truck what a set of injectors/turbo/springs/studs/hpop cost lol

That's interesting how an overworked stock injector makes more heat than a bigger injector with less duty cycle %. Makes sense though, as the bigger injector can unload at a faster rate before the combustion event. Interesting.
 
#16 ·
I'm not sure if you want to go down to a 1.0 housing, you may want to talk to Charlie at KC, I went down to a 1.0 when I got my turbo because I wanted a little more efficincy at lower rpm but I have the smaller federal injectors so she was a dog to spool up. I would also talk to him about a turbo opposed to just the turbine, having a bigger inducer say 66 mm will let the turbo grab more air which is why I suggested a turbo instead of parts. The newer turbine will help but if you're looking at injectors the turbo is more cost effective and I think it will help with the eggs in check. With 130 cc Cali injectors you should still have plenty of fuel left to make the power. You actually may want to look at different tuning as well.

When I pulled my swamps tuned Hydra off to put on my wife's excursion, I put her superchips box tuner on the obs and to be honest I think it has more efficient and useable power than with the custom tunes. I'm not discrediting the swamps tuning just different tunes from different tuners work better for certain trucks and situations. Your stock injectors are essentially stock super duty injectors so you have plenty over injector for what your trying to do.
 
#18 ·
I just had a short chat with Dan at DieselSite again about his Wicked turbo, and comparing to the KC38R (which is what I was considering) they are very comparable. Both are ball bearing turbos, and both are very close in Inducer and Exducer size, but for the same price the DieselSite comes with everything to convert to SD exhaust (bellowed up-pipes, the collector with a v-band, a deleted pedestal, and high flow outlet), and it comes with a mechanical waste gate. Seems the DieselSite turbo is much better in terms of value. He spoke with Bob and they both agree it will run up to 250cc/100% injectors just fine.

So I've decided to hold off for tax season and get 250/100s, Comp 910's, Head Studs, and Wicked turbo, then I'm going to pull the motor out of the truck, clean it up, reseal the oil pan and install all the parts and put the motor back in. Should be a fun weekend project, and I already know it quite well as I've had this motor out 3 times before. A couple other things I would like to address as well, like fuel lines and some wiring.

I'm also going to step up to a twin SD fuel pump system (I already have all the parts and pumps sitting in the garage), as I'm only running a single SD pump right now. Maybe even get DI's fuel rail fittings....

So many options!
 
#19 ·
I've never had an OBS but on my 01 7.3 I had 200/100 injectors and ran the new KC dual ball bearing turbo. I had tunes from DP tuner and tow a lot in the 20-25,000 gvw range. I always ran what he called the 100hp performance tune towing even with the bigger injectors because it seemed like the turbo spooled better there but the temps were still manageable. I put 70,000 miles on that setup. The motor was a totally stock 330,000 mile when I did that and I never had any trouble with it, I ran it to 400,000 miles.
 
#20 ·
I’m thinking of water injection once I get my IC installed with FFD 205/30% nozzles, pending how hot it runs. Currently have stock turbo frame, KC sx300 internals and 1.0 AR exhaust, (with exhaust wrap on up pipes). Was thinking on custom aluminum tanks for each side just behind cab fitted behind the box fender skin hung on the frame, there is lots of space there. Ive fed my DIY e fuel into back of fuel rails on the end of the heads and installed RiffRaff high flow bolts in front of heads. Also have a T500 HPOP, Hydra and supporting mods.

I think water/windshield washer fluid mix for towing would be interesting to try and have it come on under higher boost to conserve water. My understanding the snow injection type systems can use large amounts of water thus the custom tanks tucked up in fenders. Also considered retrofitting a 6.7 water to air after cooler with its own radiator, but that’s getting pretty complex for an old guy and old truck....
cheers,
j
 
#21 ·
Water injection would be cool if it was somehow wired into the Pyro, and whenever it hit a predetermined temp, it would inject until it came down to another predetermined temp. That I would probably buy!

Or does that already exist???
 
#22 ·
Lt.Dan,

I haven't seen anything that is tied to the pryo temp for controlling methanol/water injection. I have seen them tied to the boost pressure. I'm working on a controller to read my exhaust temps in the up pipes. It wouldn't be very hard to have it turn on an output above a certain temp. If you used a metering pump.... then you really could have fun.

Cj
 
#23 ·
On boost seems pointless, my truck builds 34psi of boost unloaded, but unloaded I dont even reach 1200*, but when loaded down with the trailer, it only builds 15psi, so I cant set the controller to come on at 12psi because it would be unnecessary when unloaded??
 
#24 ·
Snow performance has 4 different types of controllers. The more sophisticated ones monitor boost and pyrometer temp and you can adjust set points for injection on and off as well as % injection.
j
 
#25 ·
My isspro egt can be programmed to run a water injection.
 
#26 ·
#27 ·
After further looking into it, I've decided against water/meth just because it seems if I plan on staying at stock power levels, then it's a great idea, but since I'm stepping up in power in the future, it wont be as necessary. Maybe in the distant future I'll do it for MPG reasons, but it just doesn't make sense right now.
 
#30 ·
My take on more power is a result of more fuel, (I.e., larger injectors, more aggressive fuel tables), possibly advances in timing and of course more/dense air. Fore noted to me means more heat to control, particularly if you get under the turbo and/or end up lugging. That is why I’m looking to add water, with IC as a means to better control the heat.

j
 
#28 ·
Installed an Autometer boost gauge and ripped out the glowshift gauge I had in its place, and after a few miles of comparing it to the pcm, it's dead accurate, but a little unsettling because it struggles to make 25psi of boost, whereas when the turbo was fresh (30,000 miles ago), it made 38psi, so I'm a little scared to pull the intake boot and check for play...
 
#29 ·
I’d be looking for boost leaks and if you’ve towed a bunch specifically at the block to exhaust manifold interface on the drivers side rearmost. Not uncommon for manifold bolt heads to pop off causing a leak.
 
#32 ·
Well, I just pulled the intake boot to the turbo, and I saw 2 fins had a little bend in the tips, and then after i grabbed the end with some vice-grips holy cow does it have a lot of play! Over .060" easily, and probably contacting the housing.... Great. I guess that means 25psi is pretty good, considering lol.
 
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