Building Custom E-Fuel W/Fuel Air Separator - PowerStrokeNation : Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
 
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-11-2019, 03:29 AM Thread Starter
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Lightbulb Building Custom E-Fuel W/Fuel Air Separator

Back at it again with another project. Before I start asking questions, I'll start with the plans to put the questions in context.

So, I want to build an E-fuel setup for my 96 PSD. Being the person that I am, I want to do it myself, do it right and use my creative abilities to save a couple bucks. I am going to be using two Napa 4770 filter bases, CAT filters, the Super Duty pump, and a Fuel Labs pressure regulator (pretty standard I know). Now, I know that fuel aeration kills performance and reliability, so what do I do? I look at how it's been done before. FASS and Air Dog both have kits that separate air from fuel. Here's how they do it. Aerated fuel comes out of the fuel pump, this in turn flows into the low micron filter of your choosing. Air in the fuel prefers not to flow through a wetted low micron filter membrane, much like how it is harder to breath through a wet cloth than a dry one. The easiest way to get the air out of the fuel being sent to the block is to allow a portion of fuel being sent into the filter to be bypassed. Naturally the aerated fuel gets pushed to the bypass because it is easier for it to flow there, and the non-aerated fuel gets pressed through the filter. The biggest difference between the high dollar kit and this will be that they have a nicer pump (could go buy a better pump), and that their bypass vane is a little more optimized for this type of thing. I think the Napa 4770 base will do just fine for my needs. Normally the aerated bypass fuel is sent to the tank return line. Which is what I plan on doing but my concern is that the stock 5/16" return line wont be able to support the FPR return fuel as well as the bypass fuel.

So, here are the questions. Will the stock return be able to support the extra fuel being dumped into the line? Those of you who are using the Air Dog or the FASS kit, what did you do as far as plumbing for the return line? I am planning to set up a test bench to see if this will all work the way I theorize it will. I suspect I will have to play with bypass line sizes, but that's not a big deal. My next question is what will happen if I end up trying to send too much fuel down the return line? My speculation is a couple of things, increased wear on the pump, higher pressure in the return line, and perhaps more wear on the FPR. Is that a problem? I am not really sure, this will be the first time I have built a fuel system. I do however have plenty of folks around me who have built fuel systems, though mostly for gassers and nothing with a fuel air separator. How do I calculate the the volume of fuel returned from the FPR? Is it as easy as volume from pump minus consumption and bypass? How do I calculate my consumption?

I realize, my goal of keeping the switching valve and dual fuel tanks makes this more difficult. I considered getting a second switching valve, wiring and plumbing them in parallel, and modifying the fuel sender. That seems like a lot of work though. Would love to see the insides of the switching valve to see if it can be modified, but I suspect that would be really common if it was doable. I also looked around for another switching valve, and I found some but I need more information on how the one in our truck is actuated/powered. Any thoughts would be much appreciated. Thanks for reading!

96 F-250 4x4 ECLB XLT ZF-5 4.10
3" down pipe to 4" exhaust, bellowed up pipes, TS 6, pre-turbo pyro, stock injectors, hutch and harpoon

Turbo: 66/88 6+6 billet wheel, KC S300 style turbine, 360° thrust bearing 1.0 A/R exhaust housing, 3.5" ported anti-surge 1.15 A/R compressor housing, EBPV delete tube and pedestal
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-11-2019, 03:42 AM
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Re: Building Custom E-Fuel W/Fuel Air Separator

The fass or airdog uses 5/8 suction. Then you use the 3/8 for the return. For any upgraded system, after the pump needs 1/2” and use the oem 3/8 for the return.

01 f-250, Standard
Rev tech 4" lift, 37" military wrangler Mt tires
KC diy 66, Full force 160/100 and custom tunes from PHP
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-11-2019, 04:01 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Building Custom E-Fuel W/Fuel Air Separator

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Originally Posted by Sbluke55 View Post
The fass or airdog uses 5/8 suction. Then you use the 3/8 for the return. For any upgraded system, after the pump needs 1/2” and use the oem 3/8 for the return.
Correct me if I am mistaken. You are refering to a truck with one tank, correct? If I was to do what you're talking about I would still have to figure out some way of switching between the feed lines on my front and rear tanks.

96 F-250 4x4 ECLB XLT ZF-5 4.10
3" down pipe to 4" exhaust, bellowed up pipes, TS 6, pre-turbo pyro, stock injectors, hutch and harpoon

Turbo: 66/88 6+6 billet wheel, KC S300 style turbine, 360° thrust bearing 1.0 A/R exhaust housing, 3.5" ported anti-surge 1.15 A/R compressor housing, EBPV delete tube and pedestal
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-12-2019, 12:59 AM
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Re: Building Custom E-Fuel W/Fuel Air Separator

It all really depends on injector size. Hybrids require 1/2" line. Single shots can get away with 3/8. 200/30 might be able to use 3/8 but I'm not sure.

You asked about air dog and fass. They require you to run a 5/8 suction or they wont warranty it if it fails.

01 f-250, Standard
Rev tech 4" lift, 37" military wrangler Mt tires
KC diy 66, Full force 160/100 and custom tunes from PHP
Banks intercooler and full 4" exhaust, Diy S&B intake
Diy quad feed, Hydra, Isspro boost, pyro, and fuel pressure
3/0 battery cables with military style terminals
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-12-2019, 03:58 AM
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Re: Building Custom E-Fuel W/Fuel Air Separator

Im about to put my DIY system this weekend. The only thing that it depends on is if stuff comes in the mail or what not. Wix bases with CAT 1R-0749 and a 256-8753 separator with a SD pump in-between.

My plan is to just hook directly to the selector valve. Or cut the hose and tap everything in before it connects to the metal 5/16 line.
The FPR I'm using is the FASS FPR. Im just tying into the original return line.

95 Auto. 4.10 gears. SCLB. Baby Swamps Injectors, TS-6 chip with swamps tunes, DIY E-Fuel. AFE MaxFlow. Glowshift trans, pyro, and boost. 6.0 IC KC TP38R. Converted EBPV to exhaust brake.
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-12-2019, 12:19 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Building Custom E-Fuel W/Fuel Air Separator

@Sbluke55, thanks for the info. While it is pertinent, I was mostly wondering how the OBS guys with dual tanks dealt with the return from the FPR, and the air separator. Seems like the solution is just not to have an FPR, as the air dog is regulated to ~70psi on the outlet side. The thing that your response tells me though, is that they draw a lot of fuel because they shunt a lot of fuel back to the tank to adequately pull off air. Makes me think I'll need a second pump.

@Cumminsdurastroke, I went with the -750 instead of the -749. I don't remember what the difference was, and I bought the 175-2949 fuel water separator. Again not really sure what the difference is. The Napa 4770 is the Wix 24770 afaik. Going to try and set up the test bench over the weekend to verify that I can separate the air from my fuel, but might also spend my time doing research and applying for other jobs.

I suspect I can deadhead the return from the FPR and use the filter bypass/fuel air separator as the return but I'm going to contact Fuel Lab tomorrow and ask them if this will cause a problem.

Anyone ever run dual switching valves so they can run 238/80s and keep both tanks? I know, I know. Two 3/8 lines is not the same cross sectional area as one 5/8 line, but it's pretty close. Does anyone know what actuates the switching valve? Is it an electric motor, a solenoid, a servo, or something else?

96 F-250 4x4 ECLB XLT ZF-5 4.10
3" down pipe to 4" exhaust, bellowed up pipes, TS 6, pre-turbo pyro, stock injectors, hutch and harpoon

Turbo: 66/88 6+6 billet wheel, KC S300 style turbine, 360° thrust bearing 1.0 A/R exhaust housing, 3.5" ported anti-surge 1.15 A/R compressor housing, EBPV delete tube and pedestal
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 09:30 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Building Custom E-Fuel W/Fuel Air Separator

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Originally Posted by Akya2120 View Post
I suspect I can deadhead the return from the FPR...
I did more reading and I suspect this won't work as the pressure is set by controlling the return. Not by restricting the flow through a spring diaphragm/needle valve.

So the conclusion I've come to is that I need to figure out what the flow rate at wot and create a test bench to simulate that. Any ideas how to calculate this? I read somewhere that a particular size injector is that rate per minute, so a stock 90cc injector is 90cc/minute. Not sure if that is factual information, but it would make sense. If it were 90cc per combustion that would be quite a bit of fuel, and fuel economy would be crap haha. If I can't get that to work then I'll end up having to look at alternatives.

96 F-250 4x4 ECLB XLT ZF-5 4.10
3" down pipe to 4" exhaust, bellowed up pipes, TS 6, pre-turbo pyro, stock injectors, hutch and harpoon

Turbo: 66/88 6+6 billet wheel, KC S300 style turbine, 360° thrust bearing 1.0 A/R exhaust housing, 3.5" ported anti-surge 1.15 A/R compressor housing, EBPV delete tube and pedestal
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-24-2019, 07:33 PM
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Re: Building Custom E-Fuel W/Fuel Air Separator

Think it’s 90cc per 1000 count of injector firing. What size of injectors are you planning, currently have?

Tan white tan 97 ECLB, D60 PMF, RSK SD springs front, airs bags rear, 4:10s 37” Toyo R/Ts intake, FFD 205/30s, DP 4” exhaust DIY E-fuel, ZF-5 now
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-30-2019, 10:45 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Building Custom E-Fuel W/Fuel Air Separator

Well, I'm planning on getting 238/80s. I was trying to decide between 200/30 and 238/80. The thing that pushed me over the edge is the turbo I built is fairly inline with a KC turbo that they recommend running 238/80s with. Others also say that's a good all around injector that will let me tow with the correct tunes. I also have a CSF 6029 that I'm waiting to put in when I get everything together.

I believe my injectors are stock but I'm not exactly sure. PO claims OO did injectors but had no idea what they were. He also had a TS6 put in, which must be canned tunes. But, there was also an edge pyrometer in the engine bay which makes me wonder if the original owner was running an edge tuner and larger nozzles. Idk, might just have to pull the valve cover to find out.

96 F-250 4x4 ECLB XLT ZF-5 4.10
3" down pipe to 4" exhaust, bellowed up pipes, TS 6, pre-turbo pyro, stock injectors, hutch and harpoon

Turbo: 66/88 6+6 billet wheel, KC S300 style turbine, 360° thrust bearing 1.0 A/R exhaust housing, 3.5" ported anti-surge 1.15 A/R compressor housing, EBPV delete tube and pedestal
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-30-2019, 05:11 PM
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Re: Building Custom E-Fuel W/Fuel Air Separator

Cool cool, got to looking at you truck sig and we’ve got very similar set ups. Just installed Full Force Diesel 205/30s along with Jelibult tunes on a Hydra. Very pleased so far. I pondered injectors for some time and ended up with above as I didn’t really need all the HP 238s would/could provide, plus I was thinking a guy would need a host of other supporting mods such as head studs, push rods, valve springs, bigger charger, bigger fuel, bigger oil. Have an IC in the shop with all the fixin’s just need to install. For me right now I’m pretty please, however I do need gauges which I’m in the process of ordering and that’ll provide me with much better insight and sense of security. I’m guessing I’ll do studs as I’m thinking we make pretty good boost. On street tune, which is not the extreme street, feels like an obscene amount of ponies compared to stock and makes we consider engine, drivetrain longevity. Mine’s a DD/work truck that hauls 2000 lbs more often then not, does tow duty once in a while. With above injectors and supporting mods, it’s like a different truck.
Keep us up to date on E fuel please, mines stock 7.3 e pump fed through high flow banjo bolts at rear of head, with RiffRaff high flow Banjo bolts on the front, Aeromotive regulator using stock lines to/from engine, gotta do som WOT testing to see if I need more capacity, feeling that I will not but will see. Current charger is KC300 internals 360 kit 1.0 exhaust on the stock frame, with gutted and plugged pedestal.

cheers,
j

Tan white tan 97 ECLB, D60 PMF, RSK SD springs front, airs bags rear, 4:10s 37” Toyo R/Ts intake, FFD 205/30s, DP 4” exhaust DIY E-fuel, ZF-5 now
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