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post #1 of 161 (permalink) Old 12-23-2010, 10:56 PM Thread Starter
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Returning fuel after pump?

I'm looking at redoing my fuel system with bigger lines, -10 from tank to pump, -8 from pump to Y, -6 from Y to heads. I have an A1000 to replace the mallory i am running now, along with the Aeromotive 13109 regulator. I am worried about not being able to return enough fuel through the 13109.

What would be wrong with putting a 13114 regulator inline between the pump and post filter? This would eliminate the return system from the engine, and return the fuel right back to the tank just after the pump.

'96 f-250, auto, shackle flip, solid axle, rsk, high/crossover steering, 3.73's, true trac's front and rear, trac bars, gt4202, 7.3 ic, idm mod, ccv mod, A1000, 4-line DIY Gen3, dual ipr's, casserly 350/200's, arp studs, 910's, pushrods, elec. fan, 2-stage nitrous, fluidampr.


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post #2 of 161 (permalink) Old 12-24-2010, 02:00 AM
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Re: Returning fuel after pump?

unless you feed it from all 4 ports you'll be re-creating the problematic 99+ dead head system

CCLB with some stuff done .....


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post #3 of 161 (permalink) Old 12-24-2010, 02:46 AM
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Re: Returning fuel after pump?

Will not work. You loose the RR which is needed to prevent all the issue of the deadhead. Not only that but controlling pressure that far down the line will not give even pressure at the heads. The heads will see a pressure drop before it hits the reg and it can compensate. Same goes for over pressuring.

On this particualr one it is best to go by the book. The RR setup has been well thought out and have tons of real world usage to back it up.
Another way to control flow would be to purchase the pump controller Aero sells ( not cheap) and then you can turn down the turn down the pump to flow. I assume there is options on the controller to have it referenced. You could then use boost.


But if you really wanted to do what you are speaking of lets say there is a pump that really does have to much flow and no way to turn it down.

You would want to run 2 regulators for a 2 stage system. The first one (stage I) right after the pump or after the last filter, whatever. The other, Stage 2, would go after the heads up on the engine in the typical location. You would set the stage I regulator to a pressure that was say 5 psi higher than what you wanted to actually have at the heads. 70 PSI would be a good starting point. Run a Return off the Stage I reg to return any fuel not needed to maintain that. Then on the Stage II regulator up on the engine in the traditional position after the fuel exits the heads set that pressure to what you actually want to see in the head fuel rails. Good choice would be 65 psi. Then again have the normal return line back to the tank.


If you wanted to you could actually use a larger single line and then tap into it from each regulator so you woudl only have a single line going back into the tank.

A lot more work, $$$, complication but it would achieve what you are attempting to do. BUt it is not needed. Normal Reg and run a -6an return. If worried go up to the -10an reg and run a -8an return.
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post #4 of 161 (permalink) Old 12-24-2010, 03:02 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Returning fuel after pump?

feeding fuel to all 4 corners would not be a problem. have you ever looked at the bottom port of the usual 13109? the port is really small. that is what got me wondering, i also thought about pressure at the heads not being regulated well enough from that far back. i was trying to say a little money on a new return setup. i am trying to scrap all the hard lines i have and run stainless braided on everything. it looks nice and its easier to route.

'96 f-250, auto, shackle flip, solid axle, rsk, high/crossover steering, 3.73's, true trac's front and rear, trac bars, gt4202, 7.3 ic, idm mod, ccv mod, A1000, 4-line DIY Gen3, dual ipr's, casserly 350/200's, arp studs, 910's, pushrods, elec. fan, 2-stage nitrous, fluidampr.


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post #5 of 161 (permalink) Old 12-24-2010, 03:06 AM
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Re: Returning fuel after pump?

i set my obs up with a four port feed, (Charles style) it worked great but still had a return line going back to the tank, and Tarm is right, you need the regulator up close to the motor.

if you seach my threads, and Charles' you'll find info in the 4 port feed

CCLB with some stuff done .....


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post #6 of 161 (permalink) Old 12-24-2010, 07:04 AM
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Re: Returning fuel after pump?

I thought long and hard about doing that 4 port as well. I sure wish the fuel rail had all the ports the oil rails do. I could make a very nice setup for that. As I see it, the benefit of the 4 port is you are getting the best fuel flow and pressure to all injectors and preventing those pressure waves thru the fuel rails as the injectors fill and empty. The ONLY down side is you are stuck with a dead end again. The only neg from that with this setup would be from air. If you have setup you tank pick and return properly or better yet a sump setup and run all new hose and fitting tot he pump you will not have any air entering the system. The only thing then you are stuck with is the normal entrained air that all diesel fuel has. A air dog would help there but honestly I think if you are careful to no use any sharp turned or fittings such as street 90s etc type fittings you should not have issue with that air separating and causing injector issues. The last point in that area would be the fuel entering into the head. Those ports seem purpose built to cause turbulent flow. I would think you could mitigate some of that by using the the fitting [email protected] had made to go into those larger inspection ports( I think that is what they are called??) That will give the smoothest flow. It would also keep your fuel cooler as well as only fuel used woudl go into the heads and the rest would never go past the reg which would be in this case like stock before the heads. The setup does have merit IMO. Obviously it works as two of you are both running it with good results.


Big Red can you post up the regulator part # that is used for that. I can recall what it looks like;tall and narrow, but can not recall the number.
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post #7 of 161 (permalink) Old 12-24-2010, 03:32 PM
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Re: Returning fuel after pump?



#13113 not cheap either (good luck finding one if you go that route, I had to call all over the country to find a place with it in stock, as Aeromotive was not producing them at the time due to lack of demand)

the system worked flawless in my 97, but in the e99 i went to a traditional RR system. with fittings from Mr Wizzard for the rear of the heads. A traditional RR system can be done cheaper and cleaner(less plumbing)

CCLB with some stuff done .....


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post #8 of 161 (permalink) Old 12-24-2010, 05:17 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Returning fuel after pump?

Summit has those regulators in stock.

'96 f-250, auto, shackle flip, solid axle, rsk, high/crossover steering, 3.73's, true trac's front and rear, trac bars, gt4202, 7.3 ic, idm mod, ccv mod, A1000, 4-line DIY Gen3, dual ipr's, casserly 350/200's, arp studs, 910's, pushrods, elec. fan, 2-stage nitrous, fluidampr.


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post #9 of 161 (permalink) Old 12-24-2010, 06:22 PM
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Re: Returning fuel after pump?

urbanwheeler - I wouldn't be worried about the size of the return or internals in the 13109 regulator at all.

If you are worried about it you can perform a little test to set your mind at ease. Connect both inlet ports of the regulator to the outlet of your pump. Then connect a -6 line to the bottom return port and run it back to the tank. Put power to the pump (full pump output flowing to the regulator) then start adjusting the regulator down to the minimum pressure you can obtain as shown on the gauge. I would bet you could get the pressure down to 30 psi or lower. At that point you are below the pressure range of the regulator. To be 100% sure that the fuel lines connecting the pump to the regulator are not a restriction you would have to install a pressure gauge right at the pump outlet and compare it to the pressure gauge at the regulator.

Keep in mind that pressure is a byproduct of restriction. As long as you have the ability to adjust the regulator to create less pressure, then the physical size of the return line and regulator internals are not the restriction. The needle and seat assembly in the regulator would be the restriction just as it was designed to be.

Eric
96 F-350 CC Dually
300/100% B codes, Stealth dual pumps, H2E, BTS trans, ARP head studs, Comp 910 valve springs, Tyrant Tunes
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post #10 of 161 (permalink) Old 12-24-2010, 07:08 PM
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Re: Returning fuel after pump?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TARM View Post
Will not work. You loose the RR which is needed to prevent all the issue of the deadhead. Not only that but controlling pressure that far down the line will not give even pressure at the heads. The heads will see a pressure drop before it hits the reg and it can compensate. Same goes for over pressuring.

On this particualr one it is best to go by the book. The RR setup has been well thought out and have tons of real world usage to back it up.
Another way to control flow would be to purchase the pump controller Aero sells ( not cheap) and then you can turn down the turn down the pump to flow. I assume there is options on the controller to have it referenced. You could then use boost.


But if you really wanted to do what you are speaking of lets say there is a pump that really does have to much flow and no way to turn it down.

You would want to run 2 regulators for a 2 stage system. The first one (stage I) right after the pump or after the last filter, whatever. The other, Stage 2, would go after the heads up on the engine in the typical location. You would set the stage I regulator to a pressure that was say 5 psi higher than what you wanted to actually have at the heads. 70 PSI would be a good starting point. Run a Return off the Stage I reg to return any fuel not needed to maintain that. Then on the Stage II regulator up on the engine in the traditional position after the fuel exits the heads set that pressure to what you actually want to see in the head fuel rails. Good choice would be 65 psi. Then again have the normal return line back to the tank.


If you wanted to you could actually use a larger single line and then tap into it from each regulator so you woudl only have a single line going back into the tank.

A lot more work, $$$, complication but it would achieve what you are attempting to do. BUt it is not needed. Normal Reg and run a -6an return. If worried go up to the -10an reg and run a -8an return.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TARM View Post
I thought long and hard about doing that 4 port as well. I sure wish the fuel rail had all the ports the oil rails do. I could make a very nice setup for that. As I see it, the benefit of the 4 port is you are getting the best fuel flow and pressure to all injectors and preventing those pressure waves thru the fuel rails as the injectors fill and empty. The ONLY down side is you are stuck with a dead end again. The only neg from that with this setup would be from air. If you have setup you tank pick and return properly or better yet a sump setup and run all new hose and fitting tot he pump you will not have any air entering the system. The only thing then you are stuck with is the normal entrained air that all diesel fuel has. A air dog would help there but honestly I think if you are careful to no use any sharp turned or fittings such as street 90s etc type fittings you should not have issue with that air separating and causing injector issues. The last point in that area would be the fuel entering into the head. Those ports seem purpose built to cause turbulent flow. I would think you could mitigate some of that by using the the fitting [email protected] had made to go into those larger inspection ports( I think that is what they are called??) That will give the smoothest flow. It would also keep your fuel cooler as well as only fuel used woudl go into the heads and the rest would never go past the reg which would be in this case like stock before the heads. The setup does have merit IMO. Obviously it works as two of you are both running it with good results.


Big Red can you post up the regulator part # that is used for that. I can recall what it looks like;tall and narrow, but can not recall the number.
I am sorry TARM but I would have to disagree with the statement that a 4 line feed "Will not work." It will work, does work, and HAS worked in the past.

The 4 line feed (dead head) system also has the ability to cause LESS entrained air to be produced (and in turn find it's way to the injectors) than ANY Regulated Return system. The reason why you may ask??? Well it's simple! You have 4 lines feeding 8 injectors as opposed to 2 lines feeding 8 injectors with a RR system. That in turn gives you 1/2 the fuel flow speed per fuel line with the 4 line feed.

And what is it again that causes entrained air? Oh that's right it's fuel flowing quickly across an obstacle.

But it get's even better...The RR system flows 100% of the fuel volume that the fuel pump produces through those 2 feed lines. Whereas the 4 line feed only flows the fuel through the feed lines (4 of them remember) that the engine is consuming (maybe 5% to 10% of full fuel pump flow at cruise speed),

So in conclusion a RR system will cause worst case scenario of entrained air at ALL times the fuel pump is running, but a 4 line feed may never even encounter worst case scenario if your injectors flow less fuel at WOT than the fuel pump produces.

And by the way installing the regulator down at the fuel pump would cause no issues, actually the fuel pump companies recommend it (they also recommend a deadhead system aka 4 line feed). Yes you will have some minor pressure drop due to the length of fuel line running to the engine, however this can easily be compensated for by turning the pressure up by 1 or 2 psi at the regulator.

Eric
96 F-350 CC Dually
300/100% B codes, Stealth dual pumps, H2E, BTS trans, ARP head studs, Comp 910 valve springs, Tyrant Tunes
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