Anyone CP tested or even just programmed for Hydrogen injection? - PowerStrokeNation : Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
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post #1 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 07:33 PM Thread Starter
Junior Mint
 
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Anyone CP tested or even just programmed for Hydrogen injection?

Back when #2 was $5 a gallon I had bought a Hydrogen generator and installed a system on my truck.



As soon as I turned it on with the Split Shot injectors I could hear detonation. I did pull my chip for a while and it didn't audibly detonate w/ the stock split shot programming but then it was horribly slow.

Anyways, I quickly turned off the system and I just figured that the Hydrogen was all burning during the pilot shot of fuel and this was not a good thing. I noticed on Black Cloud Diesel's website they mentioned the same thing and suggested that the Hydrogen systems are not recommended for the split shot trucks.

Fast forward 6 months. So I get my big single shot BDs re-installed and start playing w/ them. They run clean when I have boost but as heat and humidity in Central TX increases over a few days they start to smoke too much for me during low boost situations. So I try turning on the Hydrogen again w/ good results. (completely against Jody's desires by the way) I'd say the smoke was reduced 75% under all driving situations.

I don't hear any detonation. It doesn't sound extra smooth the way it can when you run Propane due to the reduction in diesel delay. It does sound a little more crisp however. A hair more crackle to it at higher RPMs. I assume quicker combustion is occuring. I have tried to resist giving it the goose but it runs so nice it's tempting. I did briefly run it up to 45 # of boost and it was running great w/ no smoke at all by the time I hit 20# of boost.

I also ran a test to try and get an idea of the amount of hydrogen production. I turned on the Hydrogen system and stuck my hydrogen feed tube that usually runs into my intake into a plastic cup filled w/ soapy water. Soapy bubbles rose out and I lit them w/ a lighter and they certainly burned! But the volume was not much. Maybe one 2-3" diameter bubble every 1.5 seconds.

So I figure the amount of hydrogen is too little to began burning on it's own due to high cylinder temps the way Propane is apt to do. It likely just helps burn the diesel I have quite thouroughly.

So for any of the programmers or experts out there who have managed to not yet completely fall asleep during my Charles-esque in length description what are your opinions? And better yet, has anyone actually looked at what is occurring in the cylinder to peak CPs etc?

Thanks so much for contributing.

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post #2 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 08:20 PM
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Re: Anyone CP tested or even just programmed for Hydrogen injection?

From what reliable HHO testing that I've seen posted (there's a lot of false claims and data thanks to scammers), running hydrogen can change detonation timing a bit on diesels. This of course all depends on the size of the engine, as well as the amount of hydrogen you are producing. The best systems still produce less than 2 liters of hydrogen per minute.

SAE testing shows at most a 2% increase in fuel mileage, but that's on smaller engines 2.0L and less. So the impact of hydrogen systems on larger engines, such as our 7.3L's, is going to be rather small in most cases. Still though is the detonation issue, as you seem to have run into.

Curtis
2002 F-250 PSD
Gambling with 250/200's on PMR's.
478hp/851tq on Haller's dyno - 7/28/12
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post #3 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 08:28 PM
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Re: Anyone CP tested or even just programmed for Hydrogen injection?

nice filters/
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post #4 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 08:39 PM Thread Starter
Junior Mint
 
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Re: Anyone CP tested or even just programmed for Hydrogen injection?

Honestly, even if it didn't improve my mpg at all the complete reduction in smoke is a huge plus for me although I think the larger 15 plate systems now produce considerably more Hydrogen. While it's true that the amount of Hydrogen might not be enough to improve mpg on it's own, the fact that I am now burning all of my diesel fuel completely has to be worth an increase in mpg I would think as long as excessive advance was not counteracting all of your improvement.

It's tough for me to measure mpg because of my driving conditions: 1) always in heavy traffic 2) give it as much throttle as possible 3) add used motor oil to the tank when ever I can 4), haul loads w/ the truck 1-2x per week as my only usage.

I am taking a road trip this weekend so I'll measure it then for sure.

Also, I have an aquantaince that runs a piddly little Hydrogen generator on a very small 4 cylinder Ram truck and he sees a huge increase in mpg as long as he drives slow enough that he is running mostly on Hydrogen. He gains like 40% according to him.

Thanks on the filters BTW, that change made a huge difference.

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post #5 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 09:16 PM
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Re: Anyone CP tested or even just programmed for Hydrogen injection?

Quote:
Also, I have an aquantaince that runs a piddly little Hydrogen generator on a very small 4 cylinder Ram truck and he sees a huge increase in mpg as long as he drives slow enough that he is running mostly on Hydrogen. He gains like 40% according to him.
Be careful and take claims like that with a grain of salt, even from people you know.

For a 1.8L engine, it takes 1500 amps to generate enough hydrogen to improve fuel mileage by 40%. Most hydrogen generators run on 15-30 amp circuits. Obviously, it's far short of the power you need to get that much HHO.

The biggest beef I have with HHO is the scams running rampant. Erroneous mileage and power claims are all over the place. I've even seen HHO kits priced at over $7000, claiming a 100%+ gain in fuel mileage. IMO, if anyone wants to experiment with HHO, build a kit. Never purchase anything HHO related off the internet. The information is free, as electrolysis has been around and in use for decades.

Anyway, that's my rant.

Curtis
2002 F-250 PSD
Gambling with 250/200's on PMR's.
478hp/851tq on Haller's dyno - 7/28/12
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post #6 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 09:27 PM
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Re: Anyone CP tested or even just programmed for Hydrogen injection?

HHO theory

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7405318183954535892&ei=VUasScyuAp7OqwKMueSUAw&q=perpetual+motion+machine&hl=en
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post #7 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 09:53 PM Thread Starter
Junior Mint
 
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Re: Anyone CP tested or even just programmed for Hydrogen injection?

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Originally Posted by Pocket View Post
Be careful and take claims like that with a grain of salt, even from people you know.
No doubt about people exagerating mpg gains! I don't know much about current but I was under the impression that increasing plate count continued to increase Hydrogen production but makes no additional draws on the electrical system? Hence the new 15 plate systems.

I also found out that the solution you use makes a dramatic difference in the quantity of Hydrogen produced even pulling the same Amps.


Golfer, Thanks for chiming in. I was hoping you would have something to contribute on this subject. Last I heard you guys had a low performing Hydrogen production unit on a test truck and I thought you were saying you saw a 2 mpg increase on the shop truck commute? Did you find out as the excitement wore off that it wasn't quite true?

Did you guys ever try the Potassium Hydroxide in your solution (I know I was supposed to get you some and I never did)? Ever try the CP testing that you were looking at doing or in the end did you guys decide it wasn't worth the trouble due to a lack of mpg improvements?

Thanks.

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post #8 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 09:57 PM
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Re: Anyone CP tested or even just programmed for Hydrogen injection?

I think a good set of nozzles, good programing and nothing but diesel fuel could easily handle all the power you probably produce at WOT right now, but without smoking a drop anywhere, and likely get better mileage than you're seeing now with the Hydrogen. Brian recently reported mileage in the 17mpg range. Does that compare favorably to what you're getting now? I don't know.

And I don't know anyone that has done cylinder pressure testing on a 7.3 running hydrogen injection.
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post #9 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 10:08 PM
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Re: Anyone CP tested or even just programmed for Hydrogen injection?

Quote:
No doubt about people exagerating mpg gains! I don't know much about current but I was under the impression that increasing plate count continued to increase Hydrogen production but makes no additional draws on the electrical system? Hence the new 15 plate systems.
With increased plates you will have slightly better electrolysis reactions. The down side is you run into new issues with the water boiling, which will severely reduce the amount of HHO produced. So you have to be careful with that.

Quote:
I also found out that the solution you use makes a dramatic difference in the quantity of Hydrogen produced even pulling the same Amps.
Correct, there are several solutions that aid in electrolysis, but this has been around for decades too. Unfortunately, this is one of the places where scammers try to capitalize and claim that they have "secret formulas" that are better than the rest. Most solutions that you put in the water work about the same, with a few only marginally better than the rest. Baking soda works too.

Just remember that these systems are based on the principles of electrolysis, and that electrolysis is the most inefficient method of producing hydrogen. This is stuff they used to teach in high school chemistry.

Curtis
2002 F-250 PSD
Gambling with 250/200's on PMR's.
478hp/851tq on Haller's dyno - 7/28/12
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post #10 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 10:33 PM
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Re: Anyone CP tested or even just programmed for Hydrogen injection?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
...Golfer, Thanks for chiming in. I was hoping you would have something to contribute on this subject. Last I heard you guys had a low performing Hydrogen production unit on a test truck and I thought you were saying you saw a 2 mpg increase on the shop truck commute? Did you find out as the excitement wore off that it wasn't quite true?

Did you guys ever try the Potassium Hydroxide in your solution (I know I was supposed to get you some and I never did)? Ever try the CP testing that you were looking at doing or in the end did you guys decide it wasn't worth the trouble due to a lack of mpg improvements?

Thanks.
no, the truck did actually pick up a solid 1-1.5mpg...but we never bothered to actually test CP on Shawn's truck, with the HHO kit.
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