Semantics, metrics, and injector flow. - PowerStrokeNation : Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
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post #1 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-07-2009, 02:47 AM Thread Starter
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Semantics, metrics, and injector flow.

In the locked 80e thread some comments were made regarding units of measurement for injector flow, and % nomenclature. I had some thoughts and questions regarding both.

First, one poster suggested using kg's instead of cc's as a unit of measure ment and I am very curious what advantage this would have, particularly since kg is a unit of mass and we are talking about an injector that flows a liquid. It would seem just from a practical sense that using a unit of volume would be of more value than how much the fuel flowing through the injector weighs.

Second, it was suggested that using a figure such as 80% over stock to indicate the performance of an injector was not accurate and that using the figure 180% would be better. I disagree. This is why.

Using accepted universal scale, if an injector is flowing 100%, that is the maximum that injector is capable of, it cannot flow 180%. If you modify the injector to flow more than a different injector, it's maximum flow is still 100%. It is also not the same injector anymore, so the scale has changed. However, if the second injector flows 80% more than the previous injector, then stating it's performance as 80% over the the first injector would be correct. Since we are using the stock injector as the standard or starting point it would by default become the benchmark and anything else would be measured against that.

Discuss.

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post #2 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-07-2009, 03:07 AM
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Re: Semantics, metrics, and injector flow.

wow...you are confused in a number of areas...no problem...

The kg/m is kilograms per minute, a measure of rate. using a viscous fluid measuring (ONLY) the nozzle flow characteristics (at low, low pressures)

The lpm is also a unit of rate, liters of air per minute...again, at low pressure, compared to what HEUI inj's are capable of. But again, this is measured with the nozzle separated from the injector...so they are "flowing" JUST the nozzle. How much air, or fluid the nozzle can allow to pass, or flow in a MINUTE. HEUI injectors operate in thousanths of a second.

The nozzle is about the LEAST important component in a HEUI injector.

The "cc's" is a measure of VOLUME, cubic centimeters, or 1000 cubic millimeters...this "cc" value is given, typically as a maximum value for an injector.

Say, a "200cc" injector might flow 200mm's (cubic millimeters) in one shot...which is typically standardized as "200cc's" in 1000 firings. The RATE of that injector is usually not advertised. One company's 200cc injector might take 4ms (four one thousandths of a second) to fully empty, again in 1000 shots...

another company's 200cc injector might take 2ms (in 1000shots), this injector is much "quicker" than the other injector...meaning that it moves it's MAXIMUM "load" in half the time...but they are still BOTH 200cc (maximum displacement per 1000 shots).

Some companies don't rate their nozzle (not full injector!) in rate, but it % over stock.

an "80%" nozzle should flow 80% MORE fuel than a stock nozzle

a 100% nozzle should flow 100% MORE than a stock nozzle, etc...

but...

you could take a bone stock injector, say a stock "AD" injector (~150mm^3 maximum displacement)...with a stock nozzle

that injector, a stock "AD" might need 5ms of "on time" to empty it's full 150cc's in 1000 shots.

put an "100%" larger nozzle on it (double stock), and guess what...it STILL only flows 150cc's in 1000 shots...but it might only NEED to be turned on for 2ms duration. The injector didn't flow ANY MORE fuel...it just flowed the same amount of fuel more quickly (higher rate!).

now, on the other end of the spectrum...I can build a 500cc injector, and put a stock nozzle on it.

guess what...if I fire that injector 1000 times...it might only flow 150cc's in 4ms...but, if I extend the PULSEWIDTH to 5, 6 or 7ms...then, it will start flowing it's full (500cc) potential...this would be a slooooow "500cc" injector, and not very useful.

I'll stop there, and see how many folks got in front of me...



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post #3 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-07-2009, 03:40 AM
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Re: Semantics, metrics, and injector flow.

Very good explanation Dave!!!

I am sorry if I confused anyone with the Kg/m vs. LPM, But I wanted to clarify "industry Standard" vs. "Aftermarket Standard"...

Kennametal (Extrude Hone) Is the largest industry leader in Flowing and enlarging nozzles, They have set the standard for measuring the NOZZLE Flow. They use a Caterpillar Flow Bench and a viscous fluid called Viscor. It is an industry standard calibration fluid for all injector flow testing equipment in any diesel injection repair facility recognized by ADS (assosiation of diesel specialists). The flow bench for just the NOZZLE costs over $100,000.00, That is one reason why the aftermarket has chosen the less expensive way to test LPM (costs less than 250.00)

A brand new stock tip flows 1.055 kg/m

We have had some nozzles Extrude honed before from stock to 200% and they come out to be 2.1 kg/m.

The testing that we have done shows that a .012" nozzle flows 3.5 kg/m

SO... That would really be 332% over stock not 200%. That is why I questioned whether or not the 200% tips have ever been flowed or not.


I am not sure why you would want to measure nozzle flow using air... I certainly don't want any air going through my injectors, That would be less area for fuel to flow...
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post #4 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-08-2009, 02:07 AM
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Re: Semantics, metrics, and injector flow.

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Originally Posted by UNLIMITED_DIESEL View Post
We have had some nozzles Extrude honed before from stock to 200% and they come out to be 2.1 kg/m.
The testing that we have done shows that a .012" nozzle flows 3.5 kg/m
SO... That would really be 332% over stock not 200%. That is why I questioned whether or not the 200% tips have ever been flowed or not.
When we first started selling our nozzles, we had Extrude Hone flow them and report back. The 200% over nozzles, we were told were about equal to the flow of a .012" nozzle, the 80% about equal to a .008" nozzle...

Wish I had a more direct relationship with someone to flow them again and get better, more accurate info...
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post #5 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-08-2009, 02:15 AM
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Re: Semantics, metrics, and injector flow.

I'm sure if you called Jim @ extrude hone, he would be more than happy to flow them for you. Tell him you are interested to know what the Kg/m flow is...724-978-7211
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post #6 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-08-2009, 02:21 AM
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Re: Semantics, metrics, and injector flow.

I like to look at it from a very simple point of view.
stock
big
bigger
mo bigger

Now in simple terms of what they actually do.
Think of it as a drivetrain, the rear end gear is the ICP/intensifier piston the nozzle is like the transmission, stock is overdrive, 27lpm/80% is 3rd gear, 29-30lpm/100% is 2nd gear and 34lpm/200% is like first gear.
The lower gears make it easier to move the fuel.

and the engine is the tuning.

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post #7 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-08-2009, 02:30 AM
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Re: Semantics, metrics, and injector flow.

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Originally Posted by DZL JIM View Post
When we first started selling our nozzles, we had Extrude Hone flow them and report back. The 200% over nozzles, we were told were about equal to the flow of a .012" nozzle, the 80% about equal to a .008" nozzle...

Wish I had a more direct relationship with someone to flow them again and get better, more accurate info...
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post #8 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-08-2009, 02:34 AM
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Re: Semantics, metrics, and injector flow.

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Originally Posted by Powerstroke Racer View Post
I like to look at it from a very simple point of view.
stock
big
bigger
mo bigger

Now in simple terms of what they actually do.
Think of it as a drivetrain, the rear end gear is the ICP/intensifier piston the nozzle is like the transmission, stock is overdrive, 27lpm/80% is 3rd gear, 29-30lpm/100% is 2nd gear and 34lpm/200% is like first gear.
The lower gears make it easier to move the fuel.

and the engine is the tuning.
Those are interesting numbers... Care to share who flowed those tips to come up with those numbers? Dennis @ ITP and myself are going to try to come up with some type of conversion for LPM and kg/m, and those numbers may help us a little if they are valid LPM for those nozzles... Thanks!
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post #9 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-08-2009, 03:23 AM
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Re: Semantics, metrics, and injector flow.

IMO, until injector manufacturers rate injectors in something like cubic mm per ms of fuel flow and maximum capacity (normal CC rating per 1000 shots like now) it isn't easy to see the whole picture. Somebody should come up with a standard test method that simulates oil viscosity at operating temperature (or actual oil at operating temperature like 200 degrees F) and tests at standard IC pressures like 500-3000 psi in 500 psi increments for flow rate. Also giving the "injector lag time" (time required to start spray once commanded) at each of these pressures would give the full picture with the other data.

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post #10 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-08-2009, 03:49 AM
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Re: Semantics, metrics, and injector flow.

I can see full on race guys with a decent budget paying for flow information at that level, but your average joe PSD owner won't want to if it raises the price of the injectors. As long as "we have the cheapest PSD injectors on the planet" is an actual selling point we'll be stuck with "approximations".

Dennis Schroeder - Co-Owner of Strictly Diesel

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