Injector nozzles and towing - PowerStrokeNation : Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
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post #1 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-04-2007, 03:25 PM Thread Starter
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Injector nozzles and towing

OK I have read quite a bit on this subkect somewhere, not sure where probably some oTher Site that Deals with powerstrokes. I am a bit confused on the selection of nozzles. I am pretty happy with the power I have, though I know my injectors are pretty sorry at this point.

So since this is my primary tow rig I am more interested in towing power than racing power. From what I have read many believe the secret to safe towing power is using stock nozzles on the injectors.

I really like the idea of going to singles but many of the injectors I see out there have larger nozzles on them.

Can someone clear this up for me and maybe point me in the direction of who sells something like this for a good price. I am seriously considering the DIY-injectors and seeing if he can get stock sized nozzles if thats the right way to go.

Thanks

2001 F350 CC LB 4X4
TN, AIS, DP 80hp, ITP boost elim, Magnaflow 4".
Tows the big white hauler.

When life gives you Lemons, throw them at the stupid people.
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post #2 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-04-2007, 03:41 PM
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Re: Injector nozzles and towing

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Originally Posted by thetonka View Post
I really like the idea of going to singles but many of the injectors I see out there have larger nozzles on them.
I bought new AC singles from DDP. Mine had a very mild EH treatment going from 18 L/min stock to 21 L/min post EH. Their stage II singles are about 25 L/min for reference. There is considerably less variation in the nozzles than the stock and they came with a 3 year warranty. Doubt I will ever use it.
I can get excessive EGTs if I do not control my right foot even with just a 60 Tow program. I am not sure I needed the EH nozzles. These injectors flow more with stock nozzles than AD splits and need less oil (although I love the big oil for towing). I have a huge amount of grunt getting the trailer going without excessive EGTs (right foot control necessary). There is no comparison with the splits and OEM oil. BTW, I have towed about 22000 with this combination and got good mileage and a very comfortable journey. Never wished I had more power.
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post #3 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-04-2007, 04:07 PM
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Re: Injector nozzles and towing

Stock 7 hole nozzles will flow more fuel than most systems can actually control anyway. (Thermally)

Unless you're running compound turbocharging or a very well setup single, you can't run the stock nozzled injectors Wide ass open without overheating, so why go bigger for towing?

What I'm saying is, you could go bigger and tone them down with tuning, but you will likely never actually have the ability to use more fuel per time than a stock 7 holer can give you in a true towing scenario where durated egt simply must remain under 1250 degrees.

Now with that having been said....

I have been towing decent loads (15,000 - 22,000lbs) for years now on larger nozzles with ZERO egt issues. I mean wide open throttle and no egt issues, no pedal modulation necessary. Just mat it and forget it.

My tow program (An actual tow program, not something simply labeled as such) will produce just over 300rwhp and run a durated, fully loaded temperature of 1150-1200 degrees at wide open throttle from one coast to the other. It usually runs 1100-1150 uphill and 1000 on the flats. I run right at 30lbs of boost in that program when towing at full load.

My nozzles are Extrude Honed 7 holers and are just less than .007" per hole.

There is no smoke when I'm on boost towing. I'm not sure what the milage is, but durated driving at an actual 300rwhp simply cannot be good for milage


Long story short.....if you honestly just want the best towing you can get.....I would run the stock 7 holers and never look back. Honestly.

I made 428rwhp on those nozzles. If 428rwhp can't keep your load moving you need a bigger truck anyway.




On Edit:

I would suggest 175-180cc's and a stock nozzle. Like swamps 175/146 injector. Although I really see no reason why you can't run say a 238cc hybrid and a .146^2 nozzle either. I am towing on a set of BD's FWIW. Just towed back from the farm this weekend at about 15-16,000 gross and ran 75mph with the cruise control set. Never exceeded 1150 degrees. And the turbo whistle was DEVASTATINGLY crisp on every hill, lol. I had truckers wide eyed and starring at me blowing their doors off with the compounds SCREAMING uphill.

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post #4 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-04-2007, 04:19 PM
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Re: Injector nozzles and towing

I'm running Beans stage 1 singles right now which I believe are stock injectors from an International 444e (I think the high torque version, but I'm not 100% sure on that). They are 160cc with a stock nozzle. I tow about 20,000 GC through the western US using Jody's 80 econ tune & have not had any problems with power. There have been a couple times where I had to back out to keep EGT's in check, and there is a little too much smoke for my taste. I think that the smoke is more from my lousy turbo, which is hopefully soon going to be replaced. When I last talked to Jody (about 6-7 months ago), he hadn't yet live tuned a truck with these injectors, and he felt that once he head, he could get better performance from them. I currently am planning on replacing the turbo, maybe looking into big oil, then getting live tuned.
Anyway, to get to the point, you might look at either Beans stage one singles or DDP's like what horses has.

02 CC 4x4. AFE stage 2, Magnaflow 4" exhaust, BTS tranny, live-tuned by Jody, AC singles, DI regulated return, Terminator HPOP, DR 4.5" lift & some other stuff...


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post #5 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-04-2007, 05:08 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Injector nozzles and towing

Charles, where did you get your injectors?

2001 F350 CC LB 4X4
TN, AIS, DP 80hp, ITP boost elim, Magnaflow 4".
Tows the big white hauler.

When life gives you Lemons, throw them at the stupid people.
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post #6 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-04-2007, 05:16 PM
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Re: Injector nozzles and towing

Ive always got along just fine with big nozzles. The old truck ran .010 edm nozzles on a set of hybrid injectors and a modded h2e turbo. Never had egt problems, the only time i could get the egt's too high was while accelerating loaded. New truck has big BD's with .012 nozzles and an even larger turbo. Towed 20k gross last week w/o issues. Sure i could get it hot or smoke out an intersection, but i had to try. IMO tuning plays just as much of a role in egt's and smoke as the nozzle size does.

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post #7 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-04-2007, 05:17 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Injector nozzles and towing

I've got an upgraded turbo already, the TN 1.0 drop in. I was planning on stepping up a bit on the injectors which is why I haven't traded the 1.0 housing for a .84. With the rumored upgrade potential to the BB center section on this turbo I am going to wait and see. I already have a 6L CAC in the garage waiting to go in as well as hoping to upgrade my exhaust real soon. I like the pricing and reputation of swaps injectors, they are high on my list.

The tough thing is that so many of the injectors people rave about are $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. I would rather spend my cash on my house, my wife's Rhino, or save up to get me another crawler. I am willing to spend money if its well spent, as with the turbo and CAC, but $2K-$3K on injectors is pushing it. I am more than capable of buying the DIY kits and doing it myself, but I am lazy and I work too much.

So what I am hearing is something like the Swap 175/146 singles would be a good choice. How much would they support for those rare non-towing situations with good programming? With the setup I have going in and say DPs 80hp tow tune how safe will I be with a 15K tag hauler?

Thanks guys, anyone else with real first hand experience towing something over 10K please post up, I would appreciate it. I am looking for real world experience, including pricing, quality and customer service. I have my preferred vendors for most things, but I am always willing to buy from someone else if its the right choice.

2001 F350 CC LB 4X4
TN, AIS, DP 80hp, ITP boost elim, Magnaflow 4".
Tows the big white hauler.

When life gives you Lemons, throw them at the stupid people.
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post #8 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-04-2007, 05:19 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Injector nozzles and towing

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Originally Posted by lukecline View Post
Ive always got along just fine with big nozzles. The old truck ran .010 edm nozzles on a set of hybrid injectors and a modded h2e turbo. Never had egt problems, the only time i could get the egt's too high was while accelerating loaded. New truck has big BD's with .012 nozzles and an even larger turbo. Towed 20k gross last week w/o issues. Sure i could get it hot or smoke out an intersection, but i had to try. IMO tuning plays just as much of a role in egt's and smoke as the nozzle size does.
Excellent point, and if I go to singles I will probably pony up and get me an F5. Dennis at ITP has been real helpful on that issue, along with Jody and his wife.

2001 F350 CC LB 4X4
TN, AIS, DP 80hp, ITP boost elim, Magnaflow 4".
Tows the big white hauler.

When life gives you Lemons, throw them at the stupid people.
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post #9 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-04-2007, 05:56 PM
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Re: Injector nozzles and towing

I think you can get a set of B codes for like 1900 bucks without a whole lot of trouble.

And NO, you don't HAVE to run multiple oil pumps to run BD's. You only need the extra oil if you plan to inject fuel in the 190+cc range. Up to that point they don't use any more oil than the AD you replaced them with. And they use less oil per fuel quantity injected than any A-code injector.

If you want to do something other than tow, I'd toss in a set of BD's with a stock 7 holer initially. Then add some oil. Then after all that if your power urges exceed the 400rwhp level, you're just a nozzle swap away from 500+.

BD's are very versitile with decent nozzles.
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post #10 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-04-2007, 07:04 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Injector nozzles and towing

Actually exceeding 400 also puts me into a rod upgrade. Where would I get a decent price on BD with stock nozzles?

2001 F350 CC LB 4X4
TN, AIS, DP 80hp, ITP boost elim, Magnaflow 4".
Tows the big white hauler.

When life gives you Lemons, throw them at the stupid people.
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