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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-30-2007, 05:04 AM Thread Starter
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Charge Air Density vs Temp

I'm sure it been discussed and calculated, and someone out there has the answer. So, does someone already have chart of charge air density vs temp. I know the ATW CACs use ice water to drop temps. Where is the benefit start /stop point. 10, 20 50, 100 below ambient. Im sure there is point of little gain. Has anyone done the math on this one and have a chart they can share?

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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-30-2007, 06:58 PM
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Re: Charge Air Density vs Temp

It really never falls off. The lower the cooling media the more dense the intake air charge.

If you could cool the intake air down to -100 degrees of ambient it would be about the same as running 15lbs of boost non-intercooled as far as power and intake airflow without even having a turbocharger.

The cooler the better, no marginal benefit really. Dropping temperature is EXACTLY the same as increasing boost pressure, except that is does not have the negating side-effect that increased boost has of increasing temp and reducing the overall density. When you drop the temp the required airflow is instantly achieved by the atmosphere pushing to fill the void.

Dropping temp is a win, win no matter how far you push it. The only thing marginal is the required effort, complexity and price required to drop it every degree. That can make the cost outweigh the benefit. Which is why we have elaborate turbocharging systems, not elaborate nitrogen tanks to cool the intake air. Price and complexity.

15lbs of boost is easy relative to achieving -100 degrees intake air.
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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-30-2007, 07:35 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Charge Air Density vs Temp

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It really never falls off. The lower the cooling media the more dense the intake air charge.

If you could cool the intake air down to -100 degrees of ambient it would be about the same as running 15lbs of boost non-intercooled as far as power and intake airflow without even having a turbocharger.

The cooler the better, no marginal benefit really. Dropping temperature is EXACTLY the same as increasing boost pressure, except that is does not have the negating side-effect that increased boost has of increasing temp and reducing the overall density. When you drop the temp the required airflow is instantly achieved by the atmosphere pushing to fill the void.

Dropping temp is a win, win no matter how far you push it. The only thing marginal is the required effort, complexity and price required to drop it every degree. That can make the cost outweigh the benefit. Which is why we have elaborate turbocharging systems, not elaborate nitrogen tanks to cool the intake air. Price and complexity.

15lbs of boost is easy relative to achieving -100 degrees intake air.
Yep, that's is where I was getting to. At what point is the cooling system mute to other effects. Yes, I realize cooling effects keep going, and if cold enough start liquifying gasses out, but there is a point of diminishing returns of cooling versus boosting and the happy mix of both with reason of cost. I can easily see a GTA (gas to air) heat exchanger surface temperature dropping to -20 to -45 degrees F pre-CAC flow, but would need a trade study for the weight, cost and power versus adding more turbos, or both.

Just putting feelers out to see if someone here or in the past has been there, done that!!

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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-30-2007, 10:07 PM
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Re: Charge Air Density vs Temp

I found a system that has a CO2 coil that goes in front of the Intercooler. Once you hit 10lb of boost it kicks on spraying CO2 gas into the intercooler fins essentially cooling the air as it passes through the cooler. Would this actually help or is just a gimmick?

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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-30-2007, 10:13 PM
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Re: Charge Air Density vs Temp

It would for sure cool the air down so it isn't just a gimmick.

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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-30-2007, 10:19 PM
 
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Re: Charge Air Density vs Temp

I've seen them on Subaru's around here. They don't do that much at all, they look cool, but don't do a lot.

Not to mention you have to figure out a way to keep the C02 from going into the air intake, it displaces oxygen so it would be like the opposite of nitrous.

One whiff into the engine would rob enough power to more than negate the effect of the cooling.

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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-30-2007, 11:34 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Charge Air Density vs Temp

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Originally Posted by strokin_early_99 View Post
I found a system that has a CO2 coil that goes in front of the Intercooler. Once you hit 10lb of boost it kicks on spraying CO2 gas into the intercooler fins essentially cooling the air as it passes through the cooler. Would this actually help or is just a gimmick?

Keep Strokin'
There are a number of sprays that could be used, and have been, and the cooling effect works but is short lived.

There are industrial cooling systems that will compress a gas, store as a liquid under pressure and when liquid released into coils, expands and transforms from liquid to gas, the vaporization temps are in the -60*F and some lower. The gas would then be re-compressed (typical refrigeration cycle) and stored (or continouos flowed). For the 1320 guys, they could cool during run and compress in the pits - no power lost during run. Other setups could be use in OTR where an EGT sensor could trigger the system on when a set point is reached.

Hey we could power it with an underbody turbo generator and extract some more power from the exhaust stream!!

Just thoughts of some toys to think about or play with.

aka - Grumpy .. aka - Bubba Grump .. aka - Bubba .. aka - Grumpy Old F... . . A "slow" fatass 9K Dually.
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-31-2007, 12:18 AM
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Re: Charge Air Density vs Temp

Quote:
Originally Posted by strokin_early_99 View Post
I found a system that has a CO2 coil that goes in front of the Intercooler. Once you hit 10lb of boost it kicks on spraying CO2 gas into the intercooler fins essentially cooling the air as it passes through the cooler. Would this actually help or is just a gimmick?

Keep Strokin'
some tuner on the speed channel was claiming that gave a 40-60whp gain on a 4banger but i don't know if i believe it. i don't know how effective that'd be.
your thoughts, charles?

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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-31-2007, 12:50 AM
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Re: Charge Air Density vs Temp

Yep I saw that to it was on a 350z. On that show they kept using it while the car wasn't even moving just to show how cool it looked

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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-31-2007, 01:09 AM
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Re: Charge Air Density vs Temp

Those things have to be used before you plan on making a high boost pull, otherwise the damn CO2 just goes right in the intake and cancels out the effect, or can actually LOSE power because of the oxegen depletion.

Most all of the guys claiming ANYTHING over 10 hp with an intercooler sprayer are spraying NO2 on the cooler. And yes......a WHOLE LOT of that goes straight in to the filter.

A study was done on this and using a long section of tubing actually pulling intake air from outside the dyno room for the engine, gains of around 8 to 10ish hp were found no matter if you were running CO2 or NO2. Put the filter back in the engine compartment......

CO2 would make maybe 2 or 3 additional hp or possibly lose power and NO2 would shoot up to 40 or 50ish.....

Weeeeeeiiiiiirrrrrddddd.......

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