Overheated- now shavings in oil ! - PowerStrokeNation : Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-29-2019, 02:42 PM Thread Starter
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Overheated- now shavings in oil !

This is a long one: but title says it all- metal blows my IPR and back to square one . Thanks for any responses to what the source of the metals are that keep blowing my IPR screen? Please, if anyone has a response,... I gotta decide if I can clean out/filter entire oil volume,... or is the source something shot inside engine,..THEN; Rebuild or Buy another engine,...? ‘03 6.0. Thanks to anyone who may have a sec to respond 😉🤙👊 ***Background***Changed IPR last Summer, (actually just cleaned it and replaced screen and o rings/Teflon backing ring about 11 months ago,... just normal tired out I’d checked resistance,(all good) and Deisel Tech Ron’s videos and a SG II got that fix done!) [RIP RON 😏 ...what a wonderful example of how easy it can be to just be a good guy, he was (and is) a freakin’ angel),.. tan fine through to Christmas,... loads of fuel issues in rainy rainy fall in Austin TX,... more rain in that chunk of time on record (I believe). Drained water separator, changed filters twice,... ok all good til May,... before heat of Summer, I flushed cooling system a looong time and replaced hoses and just made sure that would not crap out during heat of Summer,... changed T-Stat too- to be sure. (Also happened to change spring loaded tensioner pulley assembly , old one was sticking, kinda had to coax it to correct tension after changing alternator- old one was less than 18 months old, but was reading low/normal,..fluctuating- who knows; maybe that tensioner was making alternator fluctuate. Ok, all good running up and down the road. Then!!! Mid May through June- truck kept stalling and I’d bang on the tank thinking I’d need to go in and clean the lifter/sender in the tank,... that worked twice, then banged on water separator cover plate just to see-(kinda like we did with our starters in high school when you’d rather buy beer than a starter!). That got it started but it kept occurring. I had not just drained to water separator plug because some fine genius tech had stripped the hell out of it. I finally spent a few hours under there tap-tap-tap ing and carving and embossing and drilling and stamping long enough to get a 47 Torx to bite, drained out 1 1-1/2 Tbs of crap in the 3-4 cups of fuel that drained upon opening that water separator plug. That happened a few more times,... less occurrences when tank was over 1/3 full, at a 1/4 tank- here comes trouble. Then about 2nd week in June- randomly,..TRUCK STARTED GETTING HOT OFF AND ON- with a trailer, without a trailer,.. but no leaks in coolant chambers,..? I just felt the heat, I’d hear the fan kick into super high,... but the gauges read middle of the range, never HOT,... ????? I’d just let the breeze cool it, or spray the front of the stack of radiators 😉 with water and cool it down and roll in and wouldn’t happen again until the next screaming hot day. Last Friday early evening,..6-7pm traffic starting to die down and was pulling a trailer, (not very loaded at all). It was HOT out and I kept trying to just let it cool off every so often my opening hood and getting gusts of the breeze. While going from place to place to find water spigot- it quit- no start. Changed coolant temp sensor, checked ICP, it read .24 appropriately after cleaning connector pigtail and retaping. Finally changed IPR kit again, fired up after a little jump charge/start. Quit in 30 seconds. Pulled IPR back out and it was worse than the first one I pulled! Brass shavings? Teflon ring was scratched all to hell. Next step,... pulled IPR again, but also drained oil, and cleaned out filter chamber/housing by running clean oil all the way through to drain pan, carb cleaner and vacuum, WD 40 and vacuum, carb cleaner and vacuum, and a little more new oil run through,... installed new Motorcraft filter and 15 quarts of oil. Started. And i let idle (rough) for a few secs and then let us sit and repeated. Ran rough and when I put it in gear it wanted to stall ASAP, so went back to Park. After a bit, i brought up rpms to kinda see if my 15 quarts was enough to make a difference,.. not for long. I watched the scan gauge IPR reading shoot up to 84.7 and it died. Tried to start again and it gives that same old sound that says “I can do this all day!” Not gonna fire until IPR is cleaned out and cleaned screen is replaced again. I need some advice !! Info? Guidance? Please. I’ve been in a damn parking lot for a week. I have tools and music equipment in truck and trailer and cannot leave it OR tow it (pretty low on $ now).
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-29-2019, 03:27 PM
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Re: Overheated- now shavings in oil !

First off - you probably didn't have a Tech draining the water, probably done by a trainee.

When you posted "but the gauges read middle of the range, never HOT", were you referring to the dash gauges or the ScanGaugeII? I assume it was the dash gauges, but why were you depending on them when you have a ScanGuageII?

You posted "randomly,..TRUCK STARTED GETTING HOT OFF AND ON- with a trailer, without a trailer,.. but no leaks in coolant chambers". How did you know it was overheating since the gauges read "normal". Was it just the operation of the fan? Have you lost any coolant level in the degas bottle? I am not really sure what you meant by "no leaks in the coolant chambers".

It would help to know for sure what the metal is. You posted "Brass shavings?" with a questionmark, so I assume it is a yellow colored metal and non-magnetic?

Sounds to me like it is probably your HPOP that failed, but that wouldn't be the reason for the engine (oil AND coolant) getting hot. It is probably a result of the engine getting hot. It would help to know how hot it really got, but I guess that isn't something we will ever know. Pull the oil filter out and examine the oil filter housing standpipe. Does it look deformed from heat?

My guess is that your oil cooler is plugged and overheated oil took out the HPOP, but that is just a guess. Since the coolant got hot also (I assumed that from your wording), there may be more things that are wrong.

If it was both the coolant and the oil getting hot, you may have a head gasket issue. Could also be, with all the fuel issues you had, that you had an injector dumping fuel, which would heat things up. I would venture a guess that you will have multiple injector problems because of the water and crud that was in the fuel system. The water reservoir isn't big, so any water pushed through can damage injectors. Also, if the filters plugged up, the resulting low fuel supply pressure will damage injectors.

IMO you are going to have to start removing things to get this one fixed. If you install a new HPOP, you might as well install a new oil cooler as well, since the installation of a new HPOP is recommended to include pulling the oil cooler to clean out the sump that feeds the HPO (and flush the feed line). So - you might as well start by pulling the HPOP and the oil cooler - unless someone else has a better idea (I assume the engine still rotates properly).

Did you save the oil you drained? If so, you might want to send a sample off to Blackstone. Did you inspect the oil you drained? Did it have metal in it?

I would be draining the coolant also, just to see what condition it was in.

I hope I am wrong, but this might end up being very costly - even if it isn't a head gasket issue, the HPOP, injectors, and oil cooler will make it a BIG bill.

Lastly - posts as one big paragraph are hard for most folks to read. It would be appreciated if you could break up the posts into decent sized paragraphs.
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Mark
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-29-2019, 07:32 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reply sir. Answering your questions in no specific order,..
A) long paragraph issue. Yep, I get it,... but I’ve read lots of forums over the years and it seemed to me that after lots of back and forth,... slow paying out all that history may frustrate those kind individuals that offer up advice. Figured I’d just put all the recent history out there to allow for the experienced sort to try and have the best chance of making sense of it. I did consider that it may turn some away from reading it all, but - it’s never a perfect situation, or solution,... but thank YOU for reading !!! I was hoping the “metal shavings in oil “ would grab the attention of someone who thought that interesting enough to read
B) metal/save oil? “Looked” brass. Probably not brass,... bc yes, it was magnetic. And i did check the last of the old oil before cleaning out the catch container,( and used a white one to see things better). Plenty of particulate matter in old oil and much of the metal dust/shavings were just plain grey as in -not brass. Also the brass colored metal also proved to be ferrous as it stuck to magnet
C) oil stand/filter housing. Yep. Checked all that too. It’s functioning and there was metal in there when I cleaned it well,(oil/solvent/WD/vacuum).
D) how did I know it was hot? The fan kicking into super hi was first concern, and as I checked the degas tank,... it was not low, but oh that coolant water mix was trying to bleed steam out at the cap, and probably did loose a bit via steam/water vapor. As I mentioned earlier, the guess temp sensor was bad, why not getting dash gauge response,... but that same sensor tells the fan to go to high, maybe? no? Anyway. I replaced that first. And why didn’t I just use my scan gauge? Frantically looking for a water spigot and still plenty of antsy drivers in traffic racing to go spend Friday’s paycheck - I’m afraid I just didn’t catch my snap there while driving with the trailer and hoping to hi he’ll I didn’t overheat TOO badly,...
E) coolant drain/ and clarification on “no leaks in coolant system”
I did cooling system flush and fill, with a new hose under degass tank that accepts the heater core tube and degass tank via a wye, and on down to bottom of block. When I stated no leaks, just meant that my hoses, fitting, radiator, heater core, etc,... none of that was leaking (except a tad of steam under the fill cap)
F). Head Gasket issue,...? I’m not sure if I have this right, but I read that had I blown coolant/water over to where it’s no supposed to be,.., that I would have some moisture in the EGR valve,... I pulled it and zero moisture,...only sooty carbon.. just cleaned it really well and cleaned out from down where it installs, and cleaned the mating surfaces before re installing
I believe that answers lots of your questions. After start up upon replacing first freshly cleaned IPR with new kit. It sounded really perfect, but just died real quick. Of course that when I did the oil change (just the 15 quart change, with new filter of course) and put a fresh kit on IPR again that start up was very rough. I started and turned off after a few seconds. Did that a series of 5 or 6 times before I let it idle a while, and then slowly brought rpms up to about 1400. It died during some of that
Hope that answers your questions
I’d just love to hook up a hi and low (gravitywise) nipplle and hoses to a filter system with removable cartridges and it’s own sturdy pump! Somehow tell all the different chambers to open to let oil backflush through filters, screens, HPOP, coolers,... sound like I need to design one and patent it! But in lieu of that pipe dream , I suppose I have to open up top of oil cooler? Take HPOP apart,... test it, clean it, replace it if needed? And yes, i do realize this is costly- but I’m gonna have to do all this myself,...( that’s why i may just need another used motor,..?). Normally, I don’t scrimp on any parts or choices to make things idiotproof, bombproof,... but at present - well, it’s an extremely difficult time on the cash flow front, so making some “best choices under present conditions”
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-29-2019, 07:35 PM Thread Starter
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Please just roll over the typos please,... “coolant temp sensor” rather than whatever autocorrect snuck in on me 😉
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-29-2019, 07:46 PM
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If you had “steam” pushing out past the cap you likey have excessive pressure in the system from a blown head gasket (you say that the EGR valve is bone dry indicating it’s likely not the cooler). This is separate from your lack of icp pressure. IMO you ar likely looking at a set of head gaskets, a new HPOP, and oil cooler at minimum by the description of all your issues. I would not recommend installing any used parts from a junkyard engine to replace what’s in yours.

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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-29-2019, 08:19 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks a ton for your input. I’d agree on the used parts comment- not headed down that road,.. I was just considering replacing the whole engine from a “recycled parts yard”. Ha! (I’m in Austin Tx, they dress everything up with “recycled” or “green” here!!). If I did choose that route, at least I’d have some kind of parts bank (not critical parts, more like bolts, clips,..? ). BTW, I have another ‘03 6.0 I was in the middle of repairing hoses and wires and connectors/pigtails after a family of squirrels raised their brood under the hood this winter and early spring. Someone thought they were helping me out by plugging in my block heater without my knowledge- It has issues too- but I doubt seriously that it has metal shavings in the oil. Thanks for your help sir 😉
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-29-2019, 08:20 PM Thread Starter
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I obviously just realized that I have another engine already. Now, which one to put together,...hmmm?
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-29-2019, 08:37 PM
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Re: Overheated- now shavings in oil !

+1 for confirmed head gasket issue. I say that because of the fan on high.

With the degas bottle overpressuring, sometimes there are a few "caveats". Sometimes the level is too full. Sometimes the cap is weak or the sealing surface isn't level and smooth. Sometimes the coolant is almost pure water. Sometimes the water pump isn't working or the fan isn't turning. All of those can cause overheating and result in the degas bottle venting. This list of issues isn't your problem IMO.

EGR cooler failing USUALLY puts coolant into the intake manifold under the EGR valve AND pressures up the degas bottle. Head gasket failure just pressures up the degas bottle.

Mathewd11 didn't mention new heads, but I would bet a pretty sum you will need them (in addition to the gaskets and studs, HPOP, and oil cooler). Also, you will probably need a new front cover and new LPOP gears. I still think you will need all new injectors too. Who knows what else might be needed w/ metal in the oil.

Add that all up and it is more than the truck is worth, at least considering $8k-9k in parts for just the most probable issues (unknowns aside).

Mark
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-29-2019, 10:30 PM
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Not sure if I missed it in that mess of words did the Truck lose base pressure ?

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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-29-2019, 10:42 PM
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Re: Overheated- now shavings in oil !

I don't believe he posted anything on that, but there is metal in the oil filter and there was metal in the oil pan.

I would bet on the front cover to be scored.

I am not sure I would want to crank it anymore just to find that out, but I guess he probably needs to know!

Mark
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