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Hiem Joint Questions

10K views 46 replies 15 participants last post by  Chillin 
#1 ·
Is hime joints stong enough to do traction bars ?

Maybe 3/4" hime w/bung or bigger ?
Thanks
 
#2 ·
Re: Hime Joint

Hiem's are definitely strong enough! 3/4" should be big enough, but I am not positive. With the proper sized hiem, you will break an untrussed d60 in half way before heim will break.

This might help a little bit for you or not

heim joints
 
#4 ·
Re: Hime Joint

Dana 60
 
#6 ·
Re: Hime Joint

Heims are junk for what you are contemplating. And yes...... for every 1 person that understands this, like myself, there are easily 946,432,123 people that will tell you that heims are bad-ass, and perfect for your traction bar. And they're all wrong.

It will wear out, and unfortunately, it won't take too long. When it does, you will be rewarded with a nice clink...... clank..... every time you load and unload the axle while driving. Not to mention that the heims will transmit every bit of vibration from the axle into your frame, unlike all the nice poly bushings you have at your spring-eye bushings, trac-bar mounts, so on and so forth.

Get yourself some nice rebuildable joints, like the Curry Jonnie-Joint, or the Uniballs, or any of those types of joints and be happy..... forever.


Secondly, ensure that your installed link angle and length works with the arc that your axles moves through when cycled. This is often times the same angle as your driveshaft, especially so on a mostly stock truck, as the OEM engineers strive to keep the driveshaft arc consistent with the axle movement in order to avoid excessive telescopic wear to the shaft itself.


1. Don't use Heims unless you just dislike yourself.

2. Match the angle and arc path to that of the axle itself as best you can.


And all will be well.
 
#7 ·
Re: Hime Joint

Heims are junk for what you are contemplating. And yes...... for every 1 person that understands this, like myself, there are easily 946,432,123 people that will tell you that heims are bad-ass, and perfect for your traction bar. And they're all wrong.

It will wear out, and unfortunately, it won't take too long. When it does, you will be rewarded with a nice clink...... clank..... every time you load and unload the axle while driving. Not to mention that the heims will transmit every bit of vibration from the axle into your frame, unlike all the nice poly bushings you have at your spring-eye bushings, trac-bar mounts, so on and so forth.

Get yourself some nice rebuildable joints, like the Curry Jonnie-Joint, or the Uniballs, or any of those types of joints and be happy..... forever.


Secondly, ensure that your installed link angle and length works with the arc that your axles moves through when cycled. This is often times the same angle as your driveshaft, especially so on a mostly stock truck, as the OEM engineers strive to keep the driveshaft arc consistent with the axle movement in order to avoid excessive telescopic wear to the shaft itself.


1. Don't use Heims unless you just dislike yourself.

2. Match the angle and arc path to that of the axle itself as best you can.


And all will be well.

"clink and clank" is no lie, annoying as hell. I had a front shaft destroyed within 500 miles. :doh:
 
#21 ·
Re: Hime Joint

I have used both but on my truck I have the old original style ballistics in 2-5/8" aprox 100k miles on them and they are still snug. I built a 4 link setup for a buddies truck and we used 3" and 2" .250 mild steel dom tubing for all the links. My truck has 1.5" .250 mild steel dom links with the 2-5/8" ends and I have not had any problems with the links at all.
 
#26 ·
Re: Hime Joint

Yeah and a million dollar race truck throws the hiems in the trash after one race.

oh yeah btw hiems for steering are illegal on the street.

Hiems will still stretch and wear and clank, and back to no vibration damping. The ballistic joints I run are just as strong as and hiem of that size
 
#28 ·
Re: Hime Joint

Yeah and a million dollar race truck throws the hiems in the trash after one race.

oh yeah btw hiems for steering are illegal on the street.

Hiems will still stretch and wear and clank, and back to no vibration damping. The ballistic joints I run are just as strong as and hiem of that size
No actually they usually give them to their employee's and a lot of them run them on their trucks. But thats not because they are bad, it's prep.

What VC says heims are illegal on the street? In CA you can't even modify a bumper because it's a safety hazard (have had several friends get tickets for it). Did you also know that 90% of these street racers / offroad trucks / buggies with license plates are illegal to drive on the street with their 5 point harnesses. There is a very small handful that make DOT approved parts

Do you have any pictures of heims stretching? I would be interested to see that. The insides will wear out and cause slop, maybe you are confusing that to stretching?



Just go with Johnny Joint since that's what most people have experience on here with, and when you need to ask a question they will be there to help you.
 
#29 ·
Re: Hime Joint

I run heims (rod end) and Ballistic type joints on Rock Crawlers. The cheap heims are made in China and will not last. Buy a quality heim, for the street you can also purchase greasable heims. The teflon type that desert racers and rock crawlers use are built for strength. We also use them on steering and no they will not break.
 
#30 ·
Re: Hime Joint

I think I mentioned something about the opinion of roughly 946,543,234 people vs any given person that will recommend a rebuildable joint. All we've done in the last few posts is put some names to the existing stats.


Ponder this, if heims are comparable in price, and longevity and superior in strength as asserted above, then why in all of the millions and millions of vehicles on the road today, with all the trac bars, radius arms, spring-eyes and the rest, do we not see the heims being put into service by the men who design these OEM systems? Why don't spring-eyes have a spherical bearing instead of a poly bushing? Why do all those jeeps have poly bushings on their links? What about all those radius arms on all those pickups out there? What about all those motor mounts, transmission mounts and the like?

Maybe, just maybe it's because the OEM's are smart enough to use a component that will last, and that doesn't cost them millions worth of warranty work swapping out noisy worn out bearings on a daily basis within the vehicle warranty period.

Else..... where are all the heims? If someone could just point me toward one heim joint on a superduty it would really help this argument along. Referencing vehicles that are in a constant state of repair like a lightweight race vehicle where components are thrown away on a race to race basis and that itself makes more vibration and noise than anything imaginable for a daily driver in the first place is hardly proving the worth of the components used there for daily duty in an on-road setting with much heavier vehicles that often times tow loads that weigh in excess of 3 times what the entire race vehicle weighs in total. This type of stress can, does and forever will turn spherical rod ends into putty in short order.
 
#34 ·
Re: Hime Joint

I think I mentioned something about the opinion of roughly 946,543,234 people vs any given person that will recommend a rebuildable joint. All we've done in the last few posts is put some names to the existing stats.


Ponder this, if heims are comparable in price, and longevity and superior in strength as asserted above, then why in all of the millions and millions of vehicles on the road today, with all the trac bars, radius arms, spring-eyes and the rest, do we not see the heims being put into service by the men who design these OEM systems? Why don't spring-eyes have a spherical bearing instead of a poly bushing? Why do all those jeeps have poly bushings on their links? What about all those radius arms on all those pickups out there? What about all those motor mounts, transmission mounts and the like?

Maybe, just maybe it's because the OEM's are smart enough to use a component that will last, and that doesn't cost them millions worth of warranty work swapping out noisy worn out bearings on a daily basis within the vehicle warranty period.

Else..... where are all the heims? If someone could just point me toward one heim joint on a superduty it would really help this argument along. Referencing vehicles that are in a constant state of repair like a lightweight race vehicle where components are thrown away on a race to race basis and that itself makes more vibration and noise than anything imaginable for a daily driver in the first place is hardly proving the worth of the components used there for daily duty in an on-road setting with much heavier vehicles that often times tow loads that weigh in excess of 3 times what the entire race vehicle weighs in total. This type of stress can, does and forever will turn spherical rod ends into putty in short order.
Heims are a lot more then a normal bushing assembly. Not only do you need a heim, but you also need a bung to screw it into. Rubber or even polyurethane is by far cheaper the a heim. It also has give built into it. A heim is still a tie rod end for what it's worth. The reason OEM applications don't use polyurethane motor mounts / trans mounts is they do give more vibration. Ask anyone that has ridden in a 4cyl car with them, they are not a stock ride. Now that being said with stock motor and trans mounts (I have brand new ones in my ranger) with any wheel hop my stick shift moves about a 1 FOOT to either side. With poly mounts it moves about 1" if that. I have ridden in numerous trucks that have all had the same results. It's the reason any high quality aftermarket mounts are all poly.

The rear 3/4 link on any desert truck has front poly mounts too. IF they had heims at both ends, it would twist and bend the shock shaft (seen that happen to people who have done it.)

If you are getting tons and tons of vibrations then something else is wrong. I can name dozens and dozens of trucks that ride smoother on the road then the dozens upon dozens of stock or lifted superdutys / OBS I have ridden in. I guess the designers stopped worrying about that on big trucks. Also I have yet to feel even a brand new truck with less play in the steering wheel then heimed steering truck. Don't ask me why but it's my experiences.

OEM is meant for the quietest most reliable smoothest truck for down the road or even a graded fire roads. They did not intend their trucks to be jumped, hammered on, and smashed into dirt. If oem was designed for this kind of stuff, there would be little to NO aftermarket support for stuff. Who would want to upgrade stuff if the manufacture had the best product? I run OEM tie rods, and ball joints on my ranger because I was too cheap to go with heim setup at the time. I have not been out once with out bending my steering, or having a super loose tierod end. With the money I have spent on OEM tie rod ends, I could have gone heim steering FML. Only one out of 20 desert trips I bent the steering because it hit a rock.


It's funny you mention lightweight offroad trucks. Any real offroad desert truck weighs far more then a factory truck. Most extracab rangers weigh around 5-6k pounds for you information. 1.75" and 2" dom / chromoly is not lightweight.

Only trophy trucks replace heims every race, or well budgeted race teams. Offroad desert racing gets VERY little payback if they win. TT's (trophy truck) get about 4k if the win the baja 1,000. That wont even cover the fuel for the race :eek:. Now desert trucks built off a truck platform, don't usually get this treatment. #### most of them don't even replace their heims but every couple races if they can afford. Prep is the number 1 thing on any race vehicle. Would you race a nascar a whole season with out every tearing down the motor? No because you want to make sure everything is perfect for the next race and don't want to take any chances.

Tow loads may mean a lot, but they don't seen anything near the load offroad trucks see. I don't see OEM tow trucks coming from the factory with f911 bolts, yet they break in offroad all the time? Wonder why that is? Have you ever broken your back stopping too hard in your truck? Been know to happen in offroad trucks, yet they continue the race bearing the pain. Don't see that happening with OEM parts

Heims and JJ's those will never work together lol (sarcasm if you missed it)






Heimed track bar, wonder why he decided to that later on in his build?





OBS Long travel beamed truck. Wish he did heim steering also, but it works fine for his beams and radius arms



Another OBS. My good friend, since it's his DD, he didn't do heimed steering for the cost



here is 10 heims on this front end alone (not a diesel though)















I posted several times about not wanting to do heim steering because it costs too much on those trucks, there is a reason. To do a proper heim steering you need have a swing set built, or cross over steering depending on the truck. Bellow is a properly built steering set up to minimize toe in and out throughout the travel. About $1000 or more for a ranger. This kit doesn't show all the heims, the pitman arm work, or spindle work to accept the heims either




Once my truck is finished on heims and uniballs I will show you how it rides, if you want to go for a ride
 
#31 ·
Re: Hime Joint

I have had them stretch on rockcrawlers. And I have seen them stretch on class 5 cars constant beating over and over again will elongate any piece of hardwear unless it is made of unobtanium. Hiems on steering components is in the vc they wear out and pop off and there you go down the road with no steering....I have seen it in there it has been a long time ago.
 
#32 ·
#33 ·
Re: Hime Joint

If you do not need max articulation Setup a ladder bar style use a shackle up front and two point on the axle. Set the angle on the shackle so it is 90 degrees from the top bar of the ladder. For ground clearance if you have room set the shackle up from the mount if not let it hang down. Having it roughly end right where your driveshaft and tranny meet with that shackle angle will give you neutral squat based on your instant center. By using this style you will not have to worry about any binding from axle horizontal movement during the leaf cycling. All force at the shackle will be upward. A set of jonnys or the like for the shackle will allow more twist for the articulation than a standard bushing. It all depending on your planned use for your truck. If you will take this to fire break or trails that will have you under full articulation of the rear the only real answer with leafs is a single ladder mounted at the dif with a shackle mount. The other bolt on solutions leave you with parts hanging low just looking to get hung up and or torn off. If you stay on pavement there are numerous setups that will work.
 
#35 ·
Re: Hime Joint

Heim joints suck on a DD, just like Chuck said. And yes they are illegal on the street. Federal law no less, not state. For the exact reason mentioned above. When they fail they come apart. Unlike a ball joint that will fail and still retain it's integrity. Hell in the 80's when we were running sprint cars the rules stated you had to run a grade 5 washer at least a 1/4" larger than the heim to attempt to keep them intact WHEN they failed. Harsh, noisy and short lived are all facts of trying to use them on the street. They have their place, and it is in a well controlled race environment where they are checked/replaced as part of routine maintenance and noises/harshness are a non-issue.
 
#36 ·
Re: Hime Joint

04yfzkid, you just don't get it. The fact that most of your counter points have no relation to the points I made, and in fact some of them are actually support for my own points is proof positive.

A couple things as a last-ditch effort to bring you back to reality:

- A greasable, rebuildable Jonny Joint with an 1 1/4" shank and 9/16" bolt costs ~45 dollars and will never need to be replaced for the life of the vehicle. Can you tell us what a quality heim that will be sloppy in less than a year and will have to be thrown away that can accomodate the same range of motion and with similar dimensions costs?

- You mention how much heavier the dessert vehicles you reference as proof of the strength of heim joints are than regular trucks, in that they weigh 5 to 6000lbs. Can you tell us what the average diesel superduty weighs? Nevermind the 20,000lb trailer you're going to then hook to it.

- If we take it to the extreme, and I walk outside in the warehouse and look at the suspension on our T-800 Kenworth, will I find nothing but Heim joints, considering the immense forces and weights that vehicle endures? I mean, if the Heims are cheaper, stronger and last longer and all.
 
#37 ·
Re: Hime Joint

For my 2 bits. I won't get involved in the yes or no debate. but for anyone considering heims, you must look at Evolution Machine & Fabrications joints. Clayton has been making rebuildable heims since 2003. you'll find them all over, lots of TTC trucks using them, and at King of the Hammers. Spun down on a lathe from 4140 HTSR solid stock. and the Franken-Hiem he's now useing in the front links of big diesels. Just sayin' .


http://www.evolutionmachine.com/
 
#38 ·
Re: Hime Joint

What is the difference between Balistic joint and Balistic bushing ?

If I were to use them on my track bars.... I would do Balistic joint on rear (axle) and Balistic Bushing up front (frame) ?

I will decide if I will build my own or buy them ...after deciding what lift on rear .
 
#39 ·
Re: Hime Joint

I would reverse the ballistic joint/bushing. put the bushing on the axle end and the joint on the frame end. you want to be able to have a pivot point. the busings on the axle end will have some give. wont be as harsh. you could make one adj on the axle end. I have built my own traction bars for my cherokee on rockwells. it held up fine, 3/4" heim on frame end and bushings on the axle end. Heims can be cheap or super $$, quality heims, with high misalignment spacers, and tube adapters, not that cheap. one reason for heims, packaging, it takes less space to put heims in. when space is at a premium, also weight. heims have their place, I have seen plenty of ball joints/tre fail, also seen a lot of heims fail. depends on quality and application. I would never run a TRE on my crawler, but have spent $$ on qualitly heims. my .02 worth
 
#40 ·
Re: Hime Joint

The ballistic joint is a very good option. not going to debate the heim vs. rebuildable joint vs. tre. vs...... been done on other sites, each to his own. Ballistic joints are rebuildable, they use a spanner nut that can be tightened. they have a break in period, but once that is reached they are good to go. I run 14 ballistic joints. (2.63" version) on my S10. I have only broken 1, which was not built by ballistic. There new design is better. It all depends on your budget. For anti-wrap/traction bars, no less the 1.25" shaft. Lot of forces.
 
#41 ·
Re: Hime Joint

I just typed in "Heim joint for a daily driver" into google.


Good entertainment. Lets see, if I had to guess, I would say the absolute highest repeated phrase from those having done it would be "wear out quickly". Followed by illegal, expensive, noisy, vibration so on and so forth.

So maybe I was a bit pessimistic with my stats before. It seems that the words daily driver and heim joint will get you some good entertainment on guys tired of buying heim joints and tired of slop, vibration, clinking and clanking.

Maybe the world's a bit more realistic than I thought.
 
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