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Brakes...

6K views 48 replies 14 participants last post by  TARM 
#1 ·
Ok so I installed the SSBC 8 piston calipers on the truck and my braking is improved. I would still like more, does anyone know of a way of increasing the stopping power asside from installing F450 brakes?
 
#3 ·
Seems like everyone just replaces rotors and pads.

Did you replace the brake lines also? Everything I read says after a few years the lines start to "flex" more than they should. I'm looking for a set of Braided lines for my stock height truck now. All I can find is for lifted trucks.
 
#4 ·
If you go up to the 450/550 you will loose the SSBC calipers and I know you put one some $$ for those.

Swap out your rotors and pads for EBC versions. They are a step up from powerslot rotors and Hawk pads IMO and a big step up from stock. You can get the rotors cryo'd if you want to add more durability.
 
#5 ·
Ask cary..aka obswiz he has a great brake line kit.
Other then pad and rotors ain't much. You are stopping 7k plus.
 
#6 ·
The only where to go after SS lines, best calipers, rotors cut to take heat, pads etc. is up in size. You woudl need to go up in rotor and caliper size. That means selling off what you have whihc I doubt you are willing to do and really shouldn't.

I am going to assume you have done a full complete brake system flush as part of the caliper change. This requires if you have anti-locks either going where they have a machine to active them to flush that small amount they hold or flushing and then going out and doing a a number of hard stops on loose surface dirt/gravel to get the anti locks to flush.

Not sure what you have done in ways of brake fluid but if you are running whatever you got from the local autoparts chain store one thing you can/should is to move up in brake fluid performance. Any time you experience any brake fade at all you have boiled brake fluid at the caliper and that amount right at the caliper must be bleed out. Brake fluid is there to maintain pressure it does not circulate so only the fluid right at the caliper ever gets used and does so over and over again. You want fluid that has the highest not only dry but also wet rating. This will ensure they can take more heat and maintain the same pressure on the caliper.

At the very top of the heep the undisputed king is: Castrol SRF Racing Brake Fluid. It is far from cheep @ $70 per bottle. But it smokes all other fluids but also cost more than 2x of the next step down. While it is compatible with other Dot 3/4 brake fluids you will loose all its benefits and be at whatever the other brake fluid perf is worth. Because of this it shoudl only be run by itself which means a full system flush. As much as you have dedicated to your brake system I see no reason you should not be using this fluid.

If you want one step down there are a number that many think are better than the other and its all over the place. (Think tuner or HPOP wars)

Personally at this level which I think everyone should be running as a min ATE Super Blue Racing Brake Fluid is my pick. It offers very good perf but on top of that it runs in two colors so when you do your brake flush there is no question you have done a complete job. Blue and Amber are hard to confuse.

No one shoudl confuse DOT 5.0 Silicon bases fluid and is not compatible nor should be used in any of our vehicles with DOT 5.1 which along with DOT 3 DOT 4 are Polyalkylene Glycol Ether based fluid and what you should be using.


Everyone should be doing a full flush/bleeding of there brake system once a year as part of routine maintenance.

One other thing: Its a good idea to change out the Master Cylinder Reservoir Cap every year as part of the annual flush.

If you want the very best performance from your system treat your system the similar to the way race teams do. Flush regularly bleed anytime fade has happened no matter how slight. If you do that you can become less concerned about eh wet rating of the fluids. if you run SRF it will not matter just do a min of one a year flush.

Never keep any brake fluid once its been opened. Use it then and throw away any left over ALWAYS. I buy small bottles for bleeding and larger for flush so I am not throwing the least amount I can.
 
#7 ·
I'd try for larger rears perhaps? I can't remember if you can run a 450 rotor and caliper on a Sterling rear end.... They use a beefier rear.
 
#10 ·
Thanks for that link. They have stock ride height too. :rockon:
 
#14 ·
Tarm I will try bleeding/flushing them out again and see. I have never held them long enough to cause fade but thats what it feels like. Maybe max braking for 5 seconds, it just seems you slam on them and the last 1/3 of brake pedal travel you get no more. The calipers are definitely an improvement I am just trying to get them to ABS on pavement again.
 
#16 ·
Everyone should be doing a full flush/bleeding of there brake system once a year as part of routine maintenance.
I flush brake fluid but certainly not every year. I think every few years is more then sufficient from my personal observations.
 
#20 ·
If you do not tow heavy in situations where you are taxing them etc. getting brake fade etc or drive top speed for light to light as I see many of the younger owners doing as the norm. What the huge tires do in comparison to someone running stockers.

That frequency is an ideal from the brake guys. I look at like oil some go 10K some 5K which is considered the norm but plenty go every 3K. $50 every year seems cheap insurance considering the anti lock system costs. With a auto bleed it an hour or two once a year. Honestly when you consider the extra weight of our trucks and now with extra power and heavier wheels and tires its seems proper that they shoudl be getting more maintenance than what is norm for other vehicles.

A few decent articles all recommend 1 yr flushes:

StopTech : Balanced Brake Upgrades

http://www.afcoracing.com/tech_pages/fluid.shtml

http://www.aa1car.com/library/bfluid.htm


pilot4life,

Here is just one site that has a few different ones. Do a few searches for which ever one you choose to find the lowest price.

Castrol SRF, ATE Superblue / TYPE 200, Brembo LCF 600 and Wilwood 570 Brake Fluid - RACEShopper.com
 
#21 ·
No I am running BFG KM2 35x12.5x18, I know that wont help. Just a little sad I am not able to lock them up...or at least get the ABS to activate on dry pavement.

Other's outside of the PSN have suggested Powerslot rotors and different pads. As far as I know the only place I can get those monster pads from is SSBC.
 
#19 ·
I run Motul 600 in everything I have, but I get it for nothing. If it were my money I'd run ATE fluid, best per $ hands down. I wasn't impressed with SRF, dry boiling point is just average and for that price I'd rather buy Prospeed RS683 because it has nearly 100* higher BP than SRF. SRF's wet boiling point is impressive, but if you care enough to buy it, you care enough to change it before it gets that bad (average 3 years). Race car gets bled every weekend, everything else bi-annually for me.

Pads are the number one thing that needs to be sorted first. I stopped using hawk pads on the race car years ago and switched to Carbotech, and will never switch back. With Carbotech (XP10 front, XP8 rear) on my race car I can lock up all 4 wide, sticky tires on demand at 120MPH+ on stock hardware, and the roters will start to plastify before the pads fade. You can send in your pads and have Carbotech make you some new pads as they don't have SD pad shape in stock. Carbotech's also don't seem to contaminate like Hawks do with street driving.

Anyways, none of this really matters if you're running tires that can't stop better anyways. Nothing can stop my truck faster than stock pads on stock cryo'd rotors, as I just lock 'em up, even with 6 265's and a trailer.
 
#28 ·
Good links. Me living where it is extremely dry might help the cause.
 
#29 ·
That could be. I think part of it too for other people, not so much you or those really in tune with the way their vehicles run, is it happens so slowly over time they do not notice it or use their brakes hard enough and long enough. The symptom would be brake fade happening sooner at a lower temp.

Honestly before I did some reading and talked to some of the guys that do racing etc I had no idea you needed to flush your brakes out completely unless they got contaminated. I did not know you needed to bleed them after fading. The more I learned the more I realized how much better my brakes could be.

The only part I really hate about our brakes is the anti lock. ITs a PITA to get them flushed out. It takes more fluid unless you take it in or have a ford tech that will help you out. I take it over to a sandy area we have and get the anti locks to engage 5 or 6 times then flush it all out again. All in all even using the SRF stuff is not bad for every year or two. Compare that to motor oil, tranny, even coolant flushes. Can't wait until next year I hope to swap in a super 60 out of a 550 in.
 
#31 ·
We have never flushed our brake systems. And as a tech, I know how silly that is considering the number of times the Ex in particular sees its tail end in the lake. But with the stock charge of fluid on 170k they will still slam you against the belt.

The larger diameter your tire, the more of a long lever it is against its center point. The harder it will fight to stay in the state of motion it is. If you don't bump up the rotor diameter you have a larger lever fighting your stock brakes. Lift or no lift you have decreased effectiveness. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir though...

I wouldn't mind bumping up the Ex's brakes, but the truck could really use it.

Did you put a fresh finish on your rotors before putting the new pads to them? In other words- did you get them machined first? Or replaced? To optimize braking you'll want to bed the pads and rotors to each other from the get-go.
 
#32 ·
We have never flushed our brake systems. And as a tech, I know how silly that is considering the number of times the Ex in particular sees its tail end in the lake. But with the stock charge of fluid on 170k they will still slam you against the belt.

The larger diameter your tire, the more of a long lever it is against its center point. The harder it will fight to stay in the state of motion it is. If you don't bump up the rotor diameter you have a larger lever fighting your stock brakes. Lift or no lift you have decreased effectiveness. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir though...

I wouldn't mind bumping up the Ex's brakes, but the truck could really use it.

Did you put a fresh finish on your rotors before putting the new pads to them? In other words- did you get them machined first? Or replaced? To optimize braking you'll want to bed the pads and rotors to each other from the get-go.

On rotor resurfacing do not believe what the dealer tells you they are only trying to make money if they say every time you need resurfacing. If you have grooves that are bad, as in 2/32 or more, yes you shouldl resurface. If you have warping, real warping, not DTV (disc thickness variation) as a result of uneven pad material deposits which generally results from poor bedding, poor 'cool down' after hard use, or clamping a hot pad on a hot rotor it may or may not be worth it. It may allow you to get a little more life out of them But once a rotor is warped from high heat or improper wheel lug nut torquing the cast iron has a memory and it will likely come back. You likely will be looking at new rotors down the road. If you want to get a fresh surface and/or remove old pad transfer material from a rotor surface then you can scuff them up with 120 grit sandpaper. Sometimes rebedding the new pads will do the same thing. Here is the one step that people always seem to think is not worth doing or skip and many times that if its at the stealership tire warehouse or all but the top mechanics: WITHOUT EXCEPTION Wheels should always be torqued with a torque wrench to spec. IIRC 165 lbs/ft If some shop must take off your wheel/s specifically ask/remind them to use a torque wrench. Try to observe if possible. Can not tell you how many times I have seen them try to start lugs with the air gun, hello cross threading. Or they not only use it to start it all they use. Or they use a large bar to fully tighten them. No matter when you get home loosen and properly tq all the nuts yourself to be sure.


No Brake Flush still stopping hard: It will not necessarily stop the brakes from perf well enough in a quick short emergency stop although if bad they sure could. What not flushing does is allows a build up of water in the lines there is no way around it. That greatly reduces the boiling point of the fluid so you will get brake fade much sooner and it will be more severe to the point of dangerous levels of speed control. It also causes corrosion thru out your system but mostly close to your calipers. This over long term can give you issue as well. While it still stops well I think with a flush and a change to SS lines you would notice a immediate difference in your brakes performance. It does effect the short high pressure stopping as well but its gradual. Its for this reason why people neglect their brakes. They do not realize how much they have lost. Slow heat to boil frog alive type thing.

Consider this: You can stop what you think is hard but when you put your foot down hard does it stop so hard your anti-locks go off or you skid? At any speed even slower? Also do not forget your power steering system plays a important role here as well. And guess what is the only other system in vehicles as neglected as the brake fluid?? You guessed it. Power Steering fluid. Bet it has never been flushed once. Luck if it even gets checked unless there is an issue. Fluid is likely closer to black than red in most cases of older higher mileage trucks. Just something to think about. I can post up some flush instruction for them if people are interested.
 
#34 ·
The Power Steering system has been flushed... Lessee.... 6 times now?

I know that standard brake fluids are hygroscopic. I'm no dunce.
I understand the concept of wet versus dry boiling points and the role the absorption of moisture in the deal.

I do what I'm asked to do. I service the vehicles in my family and do as is requested.

I have noticed the difference with a fresh rotor surface on new pads. I'd recommend anyone turn their rotors when replacing pads. Just trying to make money? Whatever you say. I do not work in a dealership. I have no agenda in it. I think I make about $4 off of turning all 4 rotors. Woo-hoo. I still recommend it.

If you are not going to get them turned, I tend to recommend at least turning them with sandpaper, as you said. I've done this on my own stuff before I had access to a lathe. Let the engine idle and turn the rotors with the caliper off, a sanding block on either side of the rotor. Rotor can b held on with nuts run down against.

And yes, proper and even nut torque is important.
Do remember that there are impact wrench attachment extensions that limit torque to certain values and actually work exceptionally well. If you see someone torquing your wheels down with an impact gun and the extension to the socket is anything but chrome or impact-black, thats probably exactly whats happening.
 
#39 ·
Took it to a couple of people that have said it stops much better than stock. I figured I would be able to lock em up...May have too much weight over the front end to allow them to skid though.

My wife says I'm too sensitive...
 
#41 ·
Yes but you should feel the anti locks kicking in with the pulsing. Do you get that? If so then all is good. I too woudl think you shoudl get at least that but then again its all controlled by the sensors and not the traditional portioning valves of old. Get her pointed down and decline at lower speed and stomp on those brakes.
 
#42 ·
The ABS will not kick on when hard braking on good traction surfaces. If its slick out and I stomp em I can feel the pedal vibrating as the ABS does it thing.

I think I will try resurfacing the rotors and new pads and see.
 
#43 ·
Get the rotors surfaced while mounted. It will remove all the run out. You have a bit in the unit bearings the rotors themselves. Actually if you can spend a few hundred more I woudl get the EBC GD rotors or their USR rotors and what ever pad SSBC has for there rotor that gives the maximum grip not the one that gives the least dust.

There is something absolutely up. Those brake calipers without ANY doubt shoudl be able to lock up those brakes and trigger the anti-lock. They did an article on a F250 SD it was lifted 20" wheels and 40x15 tires. It was able to get the antis to trip and modulate. Some where you are loosing pressure. Consider that stock pistons give you 4,578 mm2 of piston area to the rotors. The SSBC Force 10 V8 calipers with 8 40mm pistons increase that to over 10000 mm2 of piston area. At eh same line pressure that would still give you more than 200% the clamping force of the OEM calipers or double the force. Then add in that these are likely higher perf pads as well. You are running much smaller tire diameter and footprints. They should be locking up no issue. Did you get the SS braided brake lines yet? That I would do ASAP. There has to be a good reason and that may very well be your lines are ballooning on you. Do another bleed and pick ATE Blue as its the best balance of perf and cost. Try again. If there still is an issue give SSBC a call. These are popular with SDs and they will now how they should work and what to look to for a reason. One thing I did forget about is the current rotors. Were they new if thy were old did they get turned or at the very least cleaned up with 100 grit sand paper or emery cloth. Really with those high end new pads turning would have been the min with new premium rotors making the most sense. If the rotors still had the old pad build up on them the pads may very well not be getting the bite they need and never have been able to work off the old and properly bed. Take care of that and proper bed the pads as well.

After that to get the very most out of these ( it is much easier to tell others to do as you get to spend their money LOL)

* If you can afford to go to the EBC GD or USR rotors.

* I know many of the custom calipers actually use pad dimensions that are already made that you can get from general supple lines. I would find that out and if so what they are then get the yellow pad version from EBC.

That will take you to as much perf you can get from that setup and it should be nothing short of awesome.


After about 10K take it to a place that as one of those Pro Force brake lathes. They turn the rotors while they are mounted on the hubs. This will allow them to remove all the run out that was part of the system ( unit bearings mounting flange knuckle etc.) It will have already worn the variation into the rotor and this will even it all one based on that run out effectively zeroing it on the surface.

That is about everything I know to do. Hope its at least some help.
 
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