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head porting ?

6K views 28 replies 15 participants last post by  Powerstroked162 
#1 ·
who does it and how much does it cost?
 
#10 ·
Ive had two sets of heads built for my truck this year. *** just finished the new set last week. Should have numbers by the end of the month.

Mike has alot of info to back Empire's work. I wouldn't be scared to have Chad build me a set to say the least!

Best advice I could give to anyone looking into this would be to do as much homework as humanly possible, not only on the idea but the company doing the work as well. It'll save you money in the long run and it may surprise you what you find
 
#4 ·
i am sure porting needs are diff based on goals ..
giant flow injectors running wot gonna flow diff then sat a mild dd with med sticks.

empire , gearhead, di, *** have done some decent jobs. or seen results.
pm machinist too.

kinda funny cause back a few years ago people laughed at the idea of port and polish a 7.3. but matt showed a few grapghs a while back with a gt38r and hybird truck making what seemed like 16 extra ponies. but 2k is an expensive 16, having lower egts prob helps though.
 
#7 ·
this will give you a rough idea
You also forgot to mentioned that not uncommon for the averge guy to port his motor to a complete Stop! Find someone with a proven track record for getting results and go from there....

Or you could save a buck like this feller....below is a link to the thread!

http://www.audiforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80267

Hey guys, I've got a 98 1.8T. I've had a k04 and chip for a while and wanted to get more performance. I was recommended to port and polish the intake and exhaust. We found out they used abrasive material to do it like gritty sand. So I got with my friend that tunes Hondas and we decided to try it ourselves. We got a bag of sandblasting sand and hooked up into the intake and started the car. We had to hold the gas so it would run. He wanted to let the engine suck in the sand through the intake so it would port it out and then push it out the ehxaust so it would port the exhaust manifold.
I was worried that it might cause problems but he figured it'd be OK as long as we didn't make boost and it get sucked in the turbo. After running the car and letting it suck in sand we got about half way through a 25 lb bag. The check engine light was on and the engine was bucking and kicking and sounding really weird. We stopped and hooked the car back up normal and took off the sand supply. We tried to start it again and it was really hard. Once started it couldn't idle and kept making weird noises. We took it out and drove it and it started to make scraping and knocking noises.
Help! Can anyone tell me what to do! My buddy only does Hondas so he doesn't know much about Audis.
 
#8 ·
OMFG WTF please tell me that is a joke and no one is really that stupid.:eek::poke::pointlaugh::doh::hehe::hehe::hehe::badidea:
 
#11 ·
i fully understand research first, research second, call ask a bunch on ?'s, then research some more, then decide. its how i do most things i do. when you have a shop that you have dealt with regulary, like im assuming mike has, its a no brainer, go with them. he likes them, and what they do. after watching that video, i assume that porting is done by hand. so to answer one of my ?'s, porting is not "standard". its all in the eye and fingers of the guy doin it, deciding how much do take out, how far to polish, etc etc. when you call a shop about porting, what ?'s would you ask to be able to make a informed decision on what shop to pick? ill assume again, that not all shops have a flow bench, like it looks like empire has, based off the charts mike posted. so what would you ask?
 
#12 ·
so to answer one of my ?'s, porting is not "standard". its all in the eye and fingers of the guy doin it, deciding how much do take out, how far to polish, etc etc. when you call a shop about porting, what ?'s would you ask to be able to make a informed decision on what shop to pick? ill assume again, that not all shops have a flow bench, like it looks like empire has, based off the charts mike posted. so what would you ask?
Good question!
I know I'll never know the full ins and outs of the 7.3 heads. Because the motor is limited by the injection system's ability to make and control power.
Porting on the 7.3 is at best a compromise for the fueling system. If the fueling system got better then the level of porting would become super critical in the motors horsepower production. How can it be that we as 7.3 owners are just becoming aware of custom cam grinds? I was told when I had my motor built that the stock cam was the best. Really? Maybe it was back then....

It was David at DI sarcastically joking that cams don't work...or someone stating that headers are a waste until you hit the upper horsepower levels.
Any other venue would scoff at this train of thought.
Charles is one who is making progress with the 7.3, but his focus is the fueling system. Working it as best as he can and getting everything from what it can offer in the way of tuning. Others go with a lot of fuel and use a large fan to push the fuel through the motor to gain huge numbers. It's akin to running a large cam in a 350 Chevy with stock pistons. It works, but just as not as well as it could.

I consider myself to be pretty stupid when it comes to diesels engines. Although this gives me an edge over most. Allowing me to have a clean slate in this diesel venue. About a year ago I went to my first Diesel Drag racing event. I've seen cars, boats, bikes, almost everything fly in the 1/4 mile.

What changed things for me was the Bank's S10 Chevy. I knew it was a Duramax motor, but when the driver hit the skinny pedal it sounded like an 800 CI big block Chevy motor. First thing through my head was it can't be running on very much #2 it has to be a blend of some whacky fuel to fire off in the cylinder as it did. The exhaust note was crisp and clear and loud! After the run I made a beeline to the pits to chat with one of the engineers downloading the data system. We chatted for about 15 minutes. I explained that I was new to diesels and that I couldn't believe that this "Diesel" was so "Alive". I asked if they ran a special fuel for the motor, I was told no just #2. I started using the old sniffer and all I could smell was #2. We talked for awhile and I walked away with a whole new respect for the diesel engine that day.

So what does this have to do with head porting?

I wouldn't be too critical with the heads until cams have played their part in the engine's performance development process. I'm thinking more power or power at a more realist cost per horsepower level can be had with cams. Sure porting wouldn't hurt and will add to the overall package. As porting techniques will improve as the intake flow rates increase from the cams additional flow rates. I'm more than sure that valve timing has been explored in the "New" 7.3 cam development. I'm just curious to valve acceleration, and deceleration rates on opening and closing events of the exhaust and intake valves and have they been addressed yet.

If I had to have ported heads today.....
I'd take my money to any of the top pro's who make consistence power porting heads, here (pick your favorite) on the site pay them for their knowledge and be better off for doing so.

Learning?
That's something you get from doing and failing. The only failing you can do here is to give your funds to the wrong shop. Now get going and start searching for a good porting/engine building shop. Make sure you can communicate well with them. The latter is a must as it where most of your new found knowledge will be coming from. Lastly talk to those with ported heads......

When my 7.3 starts sounding like that Banks S10 I heard at the drags, that's when I'll start throwing money at head porting. Until then I'm more interested in keeping the Rod's in the block. :D
 
#13 ·
Iirc the banks truck uses a boat load of nos to quick spool the turbo, maybe after that it was number 2 only. I recall them doing it to reduce smoke.
 
#14 ·
That maybe true.....

but at warmup no NOs is used. I bet I could blindfold the average motorsports person and place them alongside that S10 during warmup and the last thing they would think is that they are standing next to a diesel engine.
 
#15 ·
Same can be said for the newer tech diesels out now.
 
#16 ·
iirc Banks uses LPG with their set up. Diesel is used as the spark along with the NOS.
Now what about Porting and polishing to help keep a better swirl pattern with the air fuel mixture?
 
#17 ·
iirc Banks uses LPG with their set up. Diesel is used as the spark along with the NOS.
Now what about Porting and polishing to help keep a better swirl pattern with the air fuel mixture?
now see, this is whats got me all f#@ked up. on a gas motor, where fuel is atomized and brought into the cylinder "complete", i can see where swirl and mixing is important.

on a diesel, the cylinder is packed full of air, THEN the fuel is injected. so if the "intake charge" is swirling then it is affecting the burn pattern. it stands to reason that if the air goes into the cylinder and stays "stationary" then when the fuel is injected the burn is more "predictable and consistent". which would lead to better tuning. i prolly worded that wrong, but i no you understand what im trying to say.

can some one explain this to me. why do you want the swirl? i always thought that porting and polishing was to slightly enlarge the intake/exhaust ports. but more importantly to smooth them out, a perfectly flat, mirror finish would be ideal. reduce turbulence is better flow?
 
#18 ·
Understanding Port Swirl In Diesel Engines

In any internal combustion engine whether it be gas or diesel, port swirl plays an important role in the combustion process. But how much do you really understand about something so important?

By Bob McDonald

What is port swirl? Actually this is a little contradictive. The port doesn’t actually swirl, it is the design of the port that causes air to swirl! Swirl is what is taking place when the intake charge exits the intake valve and enters the combustion chamber. As the air enters the combustion chamber and the piston travels down in the bore, it causes a spiraling effect. The air in the spiraling effect actually travels around the bore such as water goes around in a flushing toilet. This effect is used in helping to fill the cylinder. It is swirl that controls the engine’s output and rpm.

To help explain this further we will use a flowbench to demonstrate the differences between gas and diesel and see the effects of port swirl in the combustion process. In a typical modern day internal combustion engine you have four strokes: intake, compression, power and exhaust. In a naturally aspirated gasoline engine, just before the piston is top dead center, the intake valve begins to open to start filling the cylinder with air and fuel.

As the piston starts down the bore, the intake valve fully opens and the air-fuel mixture gets drawn in as the piston nears bottom dead center. With the design of the port, as air passes through and exits the intake valve, it enters the cylinder in a swirling motion. In all of the heads that I have flow tested, the manufacturers incorporate a level of swirl into the port for the application.

I keep mentioning application because there are different levels of swirl found in gasoline engines depending on whether it is a stock, mild or more wild application. On the flow bench you will often see that porting cylinder heads for more cfm causes the swirl percentage to drop. This happens because you are reshaping the port’s design for more airflow and most of the time the head porter is trying to straighten the port. Air tends to flow better with less bends and restrictions (see illustration).

On a flow bench, swirl is measured with a swirl meter which will, in turn, be measured in rpm. In a typical small block Chevy, swirl ranges anywhere from 700 to 1,400 rpm, in accordance with how much lift is measured at the valve. This generally takes place from approximately .002˝ to .007˝ of valve lift.

Now in a diesel cylinder head, the swirl from the intake port entering the combustion chamber can be as much as three times the rpm of gasoline cylinder heads. Also, keep in mind that because the valve lift in diesel engines isn’t very high, the swirl starts taking place at about .001˝ of valve lift and continues to gross lift, which is about .004˝. So, we know the biggest differences will be that the diesel cylinder head is producing more swirl and doing it faster.

Why does this all really matter? Think of it this way, if swirl is helping to fill the ports of both the gasoline and diesel engines, why does the diesel demand more? In a gasoline engine, once the intake valve is closed and the swirling stops, the piston is starting to travel up the bore for the compression stroke. The mixture is just being compressed waiting to be ignited by the spark plug.

In a diesel engine, when the intake valve closes and the piston starts the compression stroke, the swirling continues! Yes, as the piston travels further up the bore, the air continues to swirl faster and faster in the cylinder and the piston bowl. It not only moves in a circular motion, but also a spiraling motion. The reason for this is to light off the diesel fuel.

Remember, diesel is injected into the cylinder in very fine atomized droplets, an action that occurs at approximately 4 degrees before top dead center. In a gasoline engine, on the compression stroke you have air and fuel being compressed in the cylinder. In a diesel, you just have air that is being compressed. So, when the piston is traveling up the bore in a diesel engine, cylinder pressure is increasing rapidly.

When diesel fuel enters the combustion chamber, it has to light off. The more the pressure rises, the harder it is for the diesel fuel to ignite. Pressure tends to keep the diesel droplets in a suspended state. So, the swirling motion lets the diesel droplets that enter the cylinder cling to the bowl and cylinder walls to aid in lighting the fuel off. This is why you hear the diesel make the “clacking” sound.

Most people think that port swirl in a diesel is used to aid in turbo lag. But actually, the turbo is used for the purposes of forced induction. This, in turn, puts more air in the cylinder. When swirl is taken away the power will go down.

One thing that has been incorporated in diesel engines is the use of pilot injection. In this case the piston travels up the bore and, before the normal injection takes place, a small amount of fuel is injected into the cylinder. This will start the light-off process faster. In turn it makes for easier cranking and quieter, more efficient operation.

If you look at a diesel from a performance standpoint, you can’t disturb the swirl of the port or the piston design. The manufacturers of these engines have gone through countless hours and testing with equipment we only wish we could use in order to design the port and piston combination that makes their engines most effective.
 
#19 ·
Head "Porting" and Cam profile changes work together along with the other parts of the system. The thing people need to understand is there is NO MAGIC BULLET. Everything that helps is part of the puzzle. Adding just one component while it may help will never on there own individual gains equal the gains of an entire properly setup system.

Saying cam before head porting etc just does not mean much if anything. Once you move past the basics its how everything works and interacts with each other that matters.

We are taking engines designed for city buses to go idling around town not do what we are doing with them. So of course things like cam work porting will have an effect if done properly. It woudl be silly to think otherwise. Cams and porting works in every other engine gas or diesel now all of a sudden it all different because its a 7.3? BS. But you have to know how to make it work you can not always just copy what might have worked well in a different diesel engine and think it will have similar effects. Its also not all about peak HP. Just becasue you might get minor peak power gains doesn't mean you did not make significant gains thru the curve and other areas.

Head porting or increasing a heads runners efficiency is very interesting to learn about. I encourage people not up on the real hows and whys of it all to do some reading and research. There is a ton of bad info people tend to spread. Maybe start at a decent overview I sure wish all this info as so readily at the finger tips as it is today 20 years ago. Back then if you were not connected with a race shop or something similar you got you info from the magazine articles right or wrong as they may have been or pushing only what advertisers had. Much harder to fly BS these days as word spreads very quick.
 
#20 ·
Saying cam before head porting etc just does not mean much if anything. Once you move past the basics its how everything works and interacts with each other that matters.
Except for cost when we talk about bolt on parts.They both increase flow to a point. A cam is much more cost effective than porting a set of heads and you have now a number of different power levels of choices from different vendors. Yes! Head work and camshafts do work hand in hand, but if you have a limited bugget and the motor out of the truck, a cam will appeal to most as a cost effective way of increasing flow through the heads, once past the basics.

Hot Rodders have been adding cams well before they sought out head builders. Crane, Crower, and a slew other companies have been supplying camshafts for at least 70 years. Head porting....now thats another subject, I can count maybe three or so from years back. Joe Mondello comes to mind. Today hand porting is almost a thing of the past. All the good head porting shops started designing and marketing their own CNC Aluminum heads.
 
#21 ·
So can somebody sum up where the porting should be done on our heads, is it intake only or both intake and exhaust? The reason I ask is because I have a reliable engine builder that will be doing my machining and I would like him to do the porting too, however as he has done many heads he hasn't done any 7.3's to date. I know this is like a weird science but can we share some knowledge here on this one guys? :D
 
#27 ·
if money wasn't an issue i wouldn't be asking how much and who does it, plus i like to research something before i just do it and have it not be what i want.
 
#25 ·
In a typical system sure a cam can add more than a head but you have to look at the head flow first not to mention the rest of the system such as the injectors in this case, which is what I was trying to get at. Its a system. The 7.3 head are different than most basic heads. Take a look at the size difference between the exhaust side and intake side. Do the cam and the heads will choke it out. Do the heads and you still need the cams to greatly benefit from the better flow. As far as head porting being a lost art every top end head has hand porting work even after the CNC mill work. Starting with a aluminum head comes from a matter of mass quantity and popularity of the engine. Diesel perf is still only a dot on the screen of the perf field let alone the 7.3 that has much more against it starting out. Volume effects cost. You can get billet heads for $10K even for the 7.3 if you wanted or you can go with $2K for porting. Look at the cost of billet rods compared to more popular engines.
 
#26 ·
you basically want intake and exhaust to be balanced. i heard intake really sucks compared to exhaust.
 
#28 ·
o i know but its easier to change turbo/injectors and such later than head. and def research it and what would work best for you.
 
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