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OUO Traction Blocks Vs. All Spring Lift.

15K views 67 replies 21 participants last post by  bwillis2003 
#1 ·
Here's a pretty good video showing the wrap you can get even with an all spring lift.....compared to what you get with the OUO Traction Blocks.





You can read more details in the "Info" portion of the video on YouTube.
 
#5 ·
I have a similiar set up on my truck (CJC Suspensions). I have a concern about the CJC and OUO bars and maybe you can explain it.

Since the bars have solid front mounts (meaning no shackle), what happens to the axle when there is a load placed on the springs? I know there is a shackle on the rear of the springs. But what happens to the axle if the forward section of the springs compress? The axle can't move forward or backwards because the bars prevent it from moving. There is only spring movement aft of the axle.





Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com
 
#7 ·
On the OUO's the bushings allow the bars to compensate for any load on the suspension, as mentioned by Layson.

I often have 2000-3000lbs of weight in the bed of my 2007 F-350 with OUO bars and often tow 10,000-12,000lbs without issue. Sometimes crossing ditches and flexing out the suspension with the weight......no issues at all with the OUO bars. They work great.


Can't tell you what happens with the CJC stuff as we don't use it.
 
#8 ·
My set up uses round bushings (from a full size Bronco) also. The OUO bars utilize a bolt while mine is a stud with a large washer on the end. So to me they are similar design.

I think both of you are missing my point. If the front portion of the spring has an arch and you add weight, the spring will straighten. When the spring straightens, the length increases. Now what happens to the axle once the springs straighten and the bars don't allow the axle to move fore and aft?

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com
 
#9 ·
I am sorry but the only thing that is similar is the fact that they have the word "traction" in the name.

I have no idea how yours work. On the One Up Offroad traction bars/blocks the bushing takes it all. It squishes down against the frame mounted plate. When the spring compresses the inside bushing compresses, and when the spring relaxes the front bushing works. That is why you don't even know they are there and your suspension works the way it is designed to do.

watch the video.. hopefully your setup has been designed and put to the test like OUO does to everything they put their name on.



 
#10 ·
Mine have the bushing fore and aft and work the same way. The difference between the two is how they mount at the block.

If the spring will flatten say 2" up front, very doughtfull that bushing would compress 2". Something will bind, break or bend.

Yes I viewed the above video. The shows a pretty much flat spring pack up front. If there is a spring pack that arch to the front portion, there would be no axle movement when the arch flattens. I'm at work currently, when I get home I'll make drawing that way you can visualize my concern.

My builder and the owner of OUO (forgot his name) know each other and have spoken with each other.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com
 
#11 ·
Differences would be the rear mounting, the way the mounting bracket on the bar is shaped and secured, the shape of the front mounting bracket, the fact that it appears your front moutning bracket is welded to the frame, your bar has a stud as opposed to a threaded insert for the bar to bolt to the upper bracket, etc...

I wouldn't really put the two on the same level of construction.


You builder knows the owner of OUO as he used to buy OUO bars and talk with the owner of OUO until he decided to build and sell his own "similar" set. I won't get into all the details here as it isn't needed.


I can't help with any concerns of your bars. It would be best to bring any concerns of your bars to the builder of your bars, IMO.



What I can tell you is the OUO bars hold up very well to a 2,000-3,000lb load in the bed, hooked to a heavy trailer or Being on a lifted truck sled pulling with 40s:

 
#12 ·
To be able to tell if the bars are causing a bind is possibly try this. Using the two piece bar in ouo setup. Have the rear mount installed on the axle. Attach the rear section of the bar to the rear axle mount. Slide the front section of the bar into the rear section of the bar. Attach the front of the front section of the bar to the front mount. You would need to be able to force the springs to compress until you hit the bump stops and also be able to lift the rear of the truck up so you can cycle the suspension. While the suspension is being cycled someone should be under the truck holding the front mount up to the truck frame, at the same time someone needs to watch where the front section of traction bar slides into the rear section of bar. Move the front mount to different spots on the frame until there you have found the spot where the traction bar does not slide in and out of its self, and that position will cause the least amount of bind.
For as much as the ouo bars cost I imagine they have already done something along these lines, although when I go to install the set I have here I am going to try to do what I just typed. Especially when Marty made the comment that I extend the bars out as long as possible to prevent binding. I would also like to compliment ouo on the most well packaged product I have ever recieved, sincerely.
 
#13 ·
One thing....if you do what you propose to do then you are taking that frame bushing out of the equation. The bar will slide as you aren't placing any load on the frame mount bushing....or the axle mount bushing for that matter.

As far as R&D on the OUO stuff, everything is designed and cycled in CAD and then of course the R&D/testing on a truck takes place. OUO has been building traction blocks and bars for 10yrs+.




Same when they build suspensions:

 
#22 ·
Same when they build suspensions:

Just curious, it's pretty clear that they spent some time and effort on this design, and cost was likely not a primary design consideration. Why didn't they go with a true 4 link design up front so that the caster curve could be carefully controlled throughout the suspension travel? It looks like it's very adjustable for the caster setting, but will change significantly as the front end moves up and down, as any single pivot setup will do.
 
#14 ·
In the perfect setup the only force that should apply any load or compress the mount bushings, is when the right pedal is to the floor and the bushings will compress some as the pinion tries to go up, then when the brakes are being applied and the pinion is trying to rotate down. Any cycling of the suspension that puts any load onto the bar bushings is going to cause some amount of binding in the leaf pack. This is just how I see things, I dont have any experience in this field.
I would like to see ouo put up a video of what I explained above. To me a video like that would show more than the videos where one of the rear tires of a truck is picked up to show articulation.
 
#15 ·
I made a quick stetch. Now follow me.....

- Notice the arch in the spring. Refer to the section of the spring that is in front of the axle. When weight is placed in the bed, the spring will flatten. When it begins to flatten, the spring becomes longer.

- Doesn't matter whether if it is the CJC or OUO bars, the bars have non-moving front mounts. Yes, both have bushings. But the bushings can't take up over 1" of spring compression.

- As the springs flatten, the bars do not allow the axle to move backwards towards the shackle.

This is what I am trying to understand with this type of set up. It really has nothing to do with if it's a CJC or OUO design as both are similiar. Whether if one mount is welded or bolted has nothing to do with the theory behind the design of the bars. The difference is how the bars mount to the block. It appears to me that when weight is applied and the axle can't move backwards, the pinion is going to rotate up or down at the same as the springs are "bending".



Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com
 
#16 ·
When weight is applied the suspension compresses, the springs flatten and the traction bar travels upward in an arc as the distance between the axle and the frame is no longer the same as it was at ride height.

So it isn't soley the bushings that are compensating for any change in the suspension.
 
#17 ·
Gnxtc2's points/concerns are valid and his analysis correct. Due to the fact that the spring is both rotating and flattening as it compresses, no solid bar of any length will exactly match the same curve, hence the need for compressible bushings at the front pivot point. When those bushings are at full squish, further compression of the suspension will result in rotation of the axle and an unnatural bend in the spring. The longer the bar, the more mismatch there will be and greater rotation. There's no magic in any particular brand; it's just geometry... and maybe a little trig!
 
#18 ·
Watch the entire video.... This is pretty much a stock truck with and without traction blocks just driving around... It is amazing how much that pumpkin moves during normal driving. You wouldn't even think about what happens when you go in reverse... LOL Just imagine what it would do with a trailer on there. It isn't even a high powered truck either... As the suspension flexes the pumkin has to rotate up or down....

These bars are designed in CAD and the suspension is cycled through its entire motion. The amount of lateral translation is gathered... The leaf springs can only move through specific geometry and that is it. If you design your bars around this geometry movement you won't even know the bars are there and your suspension is going to track and cycle where it is supposed to. That is why you can put these bars on your truck and not know they are there. If they affected the suspension travel that much you would feel it. Quite honestly it is amazing that my truck with a 12" lift and 40's with OUO bars rides smoother then stock. Then when I hammer on it everything works the way it is supposed to, the power is transferred to the ground....

by the way, you are not going to find any other suspension fabricator out there that does as much design, research, and testing of their products. You won't find anyone who actually posts videos testing out their stuff. There really isn't anything to hide, it isn't magic.



 
#21 ·
...As the suspension flexes the pumkin has to rotate up or down...
With no torque being applied to the wheels, i.e. the suspension flexing freely, there will be some, but not much, rotation of the pumpkin. The real rotation that you see in the video comes when torque is applied and the spring is flexed into an "unnatural" curve.

...These bars are designed in CAD and the suspension is cycled through its entire motion. The amount of lateral translation is gathered... The leaf springs can only move through specific geometry and that is it. If you design your bars around this geometry movement you won't even know the bars are there and your suspension is going to track and cycle where it is supposed to. That is why you can put these bars on your truck and not know they are there. If they affected the suspension travel that much you would feel it. Quite honestly it is amazing that my truck with a 12" lift and 40's with OUO bars rides smoother then stock. Then when I hammer on it everything works the way it is supposed to, the power is transferred to the ground....
As the leaf spring compresses in its natural curve, the axle will move rearward. As the bar rotates up, it will move rearwards also, but much less than the center of the leaf spring will because it is much longer, and is not straightening as it rotates. Since the bar attaches to the axle below the spring mount, the result is that the axle will rotate the pumpkin upwards as the whole thing compresses. The rubber bushings at the front of the bar will compress and take up some of this difference, perhaps enough for low arch/short travel springs. Once you introduce a significant arch and travel to the spring, the rotation will become more significant. These bars work on your truck I have no doubt. Put them on a long travel setup and I'm pretty sure that you will see problems.

...by the way, you are not going to find any other suspension fabricator out there that does as much design, research, and testing of their products. You won't find anyone who actually posts videos testing out their stuff. There really isn't anything to hide, it isn't magic...
Agreed, not magic, physics. Hard to escape. I'm not saying that these products don't work well for their intended application, but I am saying that they do have limitations that should be recognized by anyone who wants to operate outside of those boundaries. You made fun of a poster who asked some valid questions. I have thought about and asked some of these same questions myself, and come to the conclusion that the OUO parts would not be what I'm looking for in a suspension setup.
 
#20 ·
Well, given the two options presented above, I would choose the sketch from a person who is attempting to intelligently analyze the forces and motion involved in a particular design, rather than the cheerleading of someone posting pictures regurgitated from a manufacturer website. But that's just me, your opinions may vary! :D
 
#23 ·
So your telling me that paying thousands of dollars for a 3D drawing of Fords frame and suspension to analyize and design traction bars is not intelligent? How many outfits do you think actually do this? How many outfits actually draw it in 3D? How many outfits actually test out their products before it is ever built? I may be cheerleading OUO, but it is becuase I have been to their shop, talked with the owner, and physically watched him design and cycle the entire suspension before any product is even built. I seriously doubt there are many aftermarket outfits that go to this extreme to make the product the best it can be for the customer.

With no torque being applied to the wheels, i.e. the suspension flexing freely, there will be some, but not much, rotation of the pumpkin. The real rotation that you see in the video comes when torque is applied and the spring is flexed into an "unnatural" curve.



As the leaf spring compresses in its natural curve, the axle will move rearward. As the bar rotates up, it will move rearwards also, but much less than the center of the leaf spring will because it is much longer, and is not straightening as it rotates. Since the bar attaches to the axle below the spring mount, the result is that the axle will rotate the pumpkin upwards as the whole thing compresses. The rubber bushings at the front of the bar will compress and take up some of this difference, perhaps enough for low arch/short travel springs. Once you introduce a significant arch and travel to the spring, the rotation will become more significant. These bars work on your truck I have no doubt. Put them on a long travel setup and I'm pretty sure that you will see problems.



Agreed, not magic, physics. Hard to escape. I'm not saying that these products don't work well for their intended application, but I am saying that they do have limitations that should be recognized by anyone who wants to operate outside of those boundaries. You made fun of a poster who asked some valid questions. I have thought about and asked some of these same questions myself, and come to the conclusion that the OUO parts would not be what I'm looking for in a suspension setup.
I would agree that I am probably not going to take my truck to the Hammers and go rock crawling. I am sure they do have their limitations(even though I have not found any), and I still bet that any truck is going to be better off with a set of bars then without just by watching that dodge in the video.

I didn't make fun of anyone. It is just odd that someone posts up issues they have with some other traction bar manufacturer. As mentioned before they are not the same bars. Somebody took hundreds of hours of design and testing time and made their version of the bars in a matter of a few hours....

Just curious, it's pretty clear that they spend some time and effort on this design, and cost was likely not a primary design consideration. Why didn't they go with a true 4 link design up front so that the caster curve could be carefully controlled throughout the suspension travel? It looks like it's very adjustable for the caster setting, but will change significantly as the front end moves up and down, as any single pivot setup will do.
If you have questions about his suspension you really ought to just call up Dave at OUO. He doesn't hide anything... LOL He is a straight shooter and obviously loves to talk suspension. Plus anyone that designs a suspension system that can handle a 8000 lb+ truck jumping over and over again without breaking something obviously has things figured out. I have driven one of his trucks and I can truely tell you that it drives and handles better then anything I have ever driven... crazy when you think that it is a 16+ inch lift kit on 46" tires and it drives and handles like a caddy... LOL

http://www.youtube.com/user/ONEUPOFFROAD#p/a/u/1/sEq2IAXXiCU
http://www.youtube.com/user/ONEUPOFFROAD#p/a/u/0/Bx_B_V2jf0w
 
#24 ·
Well I think some how they have the caster figured out as they state less than 1 degree of bump steer thru the entire range of travel.

Why not those that have them give them a call or email and state your questions and or concerns and let them explain the tech of their product. I know from some of the info they have posted out there at various times that min caster changes were a priority for them. Do I have any idea the hows? Nope but I think if they were blatantly mis-representing their products they would have been called on it a longgggg time ago.


Check out this video of a 4-6" system with 12 " travel up front. Zero bump steer thru the entire suspension cycle range. I do not pretend to be technically experienced in all this suspension stuff but I have seen how there stuff performs. In fact other than price I do not think I have ever heard a single complaint or negative thing said by anyone that has any of there products.l





That is some sick amount of travel for a system where you are not having to send the mounts into the engine bay with that low of total lift.
 
#27 ·
...I know from some of the info they have posted out there at various times that min caster changes were a priority for them...
Unless I'm missing something, the caster angle will change by the same amount that the radius arm rotates as it moves through it's travel. Not necessarily a bad thing, but I would expect the steering response to be different as the suspension moves. Not necessarily bump steer, but a change in the "stability" or return to center tendancy. Adding the extra link allows the designer to control the caster curve by changing the relative length of the top and bottom links as well as the placement of the pivot points. Just a different way of doing things, IMO more sophisticated and what I'd be looking for in a high end suspension system.

:cool:
 
#25 ·
i think what is trying to be said is, when a load(weight) is put on the rear end the springs compress but at the same time go back. the shackle is in the back so it cycles back. i always like the fabtec design that had a shackle on the front of the traction bar, made sense to me. i like ouo stuff and wish i had the money for their stuff. so think of it this way when a leaf spring compresses it cycles rearward and not straight up. so all the op was asking was how does the traction bars give for that travel. it sure does hold it from wrapping but how about travel? for someone who has them try this, measure before and after putting weight on the back. then take the front bolt off the traction bars and do the same. be very interesting!
 
#30 ·
Going on touch on this quick before closing the laptop for the night.

As for the Adjustable Link Arms vs the 4-link, it works better for the height, travel and use of their suspensions.

Here is a video with some video footage from underneath showing the front suspension in action:







The traction bars travel in an arc.....so as the suspension compresses they move up and back as well, just like the leaf springs.


I have put 2000lbs in the bed of my 2007 F-350 which has OUO bars on it and crossed ditches to flex the truck out as much as I could, no issues at all with them in place.


As for the Fabtech bars, they do bind and we have had numerous customer's break them. Pretty sure Betaracer (who is a member here) broke his Fabtechs and now has OUOs.

It isn't only Fabtech bars that bind.....we have seen this with other bars that are triangulated bars with a shackle mount at the frame.



Good question, always wondered what kind of travel a stock truck has or even the average lift springs. Probably not much, maybe 8"? Maybe 10"-12" for a "long travel" lift kit? Obviously once you get into the racing setups the travel goes way up but I'm not really sure about the street stuff.

I believe rear steer is something to avoid. The long bars probably help that I would imagine.
In terms of spring movement, since there is concern about binding......how much fore and aft movement is there of the rear axle when the suspension cycles? And how much are the bars limiting this (if they are indeed limiting it)?
 
#28 ·
Good question, always wondered what kind of travel a stock truck has or even the average lift springs. Probably not much, maybe 8"? Maybe 10"-12" for a "long travel" lift kit? Obviously once you get into the racing setups the travel goes way up but I'm not really sure about the street stuff.

I believe rear steer is something to avoid. The long bars probably help that I would imagine.
 
#33 ·
it just dawned on me, does the ouo bars have some type of slip system in them? just like the driveshafts is what i am saying.
 
#36 ·
The fixed mount on the axle side is "canceled" by the shackle mount on the frame side, as on the PMF traction bars pictured above... i have them on my rig and so far cant complain... your trying to stop the rotation of the pumpkin, so a vertical force is more/less what you are fighting, not a forward/rearward movement... The age old timeless "snubber" bars prove this... which, if you think about it is what the fixed mount bars do... they just incorporate a shackle to allow for articulation.. sorry for running on and on..
 
#37 ·
I gotta chime in for a bit. I have the CJC bars and have ZERO problems with them. I have many HEAVY loads with them (10,000 lbs plus) on and have never had a problem. To be completely honest and i've said it before. The reason I went with them was because i never heard back from Trucktoyz when i was trying to order them. Not knocking them, i know they are VERY busy and i still do business with them. As a matter of fact, i'm TRYING to order a set of front shocks from them for a friend. When i was getting ready to order a set, i was approached by the owner of CJC and he gave me a GREAT deal on them so i took him up on them since i wasn't getting anywhere with my other order attempt.

Again, I'm not biased to either one cause i would still love a set of OUO, but don't have a truck that needs them right now. I just know that the ones i got work damn good and have had no problems.
 
#39 ·




After using and breaking Fabtech bars, I can criticise the design (of their and other other brands using a similar setup).

The 3/4" rod ends are not adequate to handle the torque. The 3/4" is the outer measurement of the threads, so the solid material is atbest 5/8". Consider that there is at least 500 foot pounds of torque put to the ground with 33" and greater diameter tires on a modified truck. That torque multiplies to the axle mount bracket by a factor of 10 or more (tire diameter / axle tube diameter), and then there is another increase in torque generated by the offset of the dual axle bracket mounts.

The gusseting and the upper and lower tube connection point is an area where failure can occur. If the rod ends don't break first, the forces at the intersection noted before handles a huge amount of force (leverage of fulcrum) to a point weakend (or at least made more brittle) by welding. There is not enough strength at the area where the most force is applied.
 
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