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Not kidding around - I really need some expert help here

14K views 116 replies 36 participants last post by  TylerDurden 
#1 ·
Ok guys, it's back. Same problem from this thread:

No start, help needed - Powerstroke Nation

Truck cranks and won't start. As I crank, I get smoke, indicating that it's firing fuel. I have hooked up AE and datalogged as I cranked for an extended period. No codes pop up. I have tracked RPM's, ICP pressure/voltage/duty cycle, injector pulsewidth, mass fuel desired, and vehicle voltage. Everything is normal. Engine RPM's when cranking are just under 200, battery voltage holds at 11 volts while cranking. ICP pressure rises quickly as it should. Injector pulsewidth and mass fuel desired rises, showing that it's firing fuel. Plus it's smoking while cranking, so it's getting fuel.

I have run diagnostics from AE (Buzz and KOEO). Both tests pass with flying colors.

I have jumpered the glow plug relay using a screwdriver. Still no start. Glow plugs were replaced a few months ago, GPR was replaced a few weeks ago.

It's not the CPS, because it's firing fuel.

It's not a fueling problem. I have a fuel filter in good shape, plenty of fuel, and good pressure holding rock solid at 65 psi.

HPOP reservoir is full, oil level is good.

I took Cody's suggestion to remove power from the PCM. On Monday when I did it, the truck fired up. Today, it didn't. I first pulled the fuse for the PCM keep alive, put it in and tried to start. Then I disconnected the batteries, reconnected and tried to start. Then I pulled the PCM, reconnected and tried to start. None of those worked.

It's not the chip, I've tried starting with the chip unplugged.

It shouldn't be a glow plug issue at all. On Monday the temps were 80 degrees when I tried to start. At those temps, I should be able to unplug the GPR and the truck should still start.

Fuses check out fine, I've already gone through them. EOT sensor is good. Air filter is clean. Batteries are less than a year old... Duralast gold tops. My WTS light comes on and functions normally. Starter is less than a year old, and spins very very very strong.

Monday after trying Cody's suggestion, the truck started. I drove around Monday and the truck ran perfectly fine. Yesterday I drove the truck again. The first time it cranked, it did start funny.... kind of a rough idle and some white smoke for about 20 seconds. However, it did clear up and ran fine the rest of the day.

Now today.... it just cranks and cranks and cranks and cranks.

The truck went on a 3500+ mile road trip, and started every single day. However, that rough start that happened yesterday... I remember that it did happen TWICE during the road trip. Two mornings in a row my truck started up and ran funny for the first 20 seconds, blowing lots of white smoke. Then it cleared up and ran fine for the rest of the day.

Ok guys, I'm at my wits end here. I really am. I've covered just about everything I can think of. Something is going on, and I can't figure it out. I mean, the truck is fueling while cranking. It's warm enough to NOT need glow plugs at all. HEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!
 
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#2 ·
Have you tried starting without the chip in?
 
#9 ·
It doesn't seem to be the PCM, at least when it's running it runs perfectly fine. It's just getting it started seems to be the biggest problem.

My truck, when my father still owned it......it would smoke to high heaven when trying to start but would not start....it WAS the CPS.
Hmmmm, interesting. I do have spares.

Have any oil in the connector of the ICP sensor? When it's a no start, have you unplugged the ICP sensor and tried to start it?
Nope, no oil in the ICP sensor. It's the newer style sensor, I replaced it a few years ago. I could try starting without the sensor plugged in, but I'm not too suspicious of it right now. I'm getting oil pressure, according to both AE and the ICP gauge. Duty cycle is also right on target when cranking. But I guess stranger things have happened.

Curtis what color is the smoke?
White, and has a very very very strong fuel smell. It's all raw fuel.
 
#6 ·
My truck, when my father still owned it......it would smoke to high heaven when trying to start but would not start....it WAS the CPS.
 
#8 ·
Curtis what color is the smoke?
 
#10 ·
Curtis shouldnt the smoke be black if the injectors are getting good oil pressure? Seems like white smoke is oil pressure. I know you just did the o-rings. I know you said ICP and HPO is good just throwing that out there. Its dumb that an engine that only needs fuel to fire has probs like that. Also like the guy said CPS, its an easy thing to swap out. I know you have a couple but i've got a handfull of em if you need it, I'll just toss one over the hill.LOL
 
#11 ·
Well just great, truck is running again. For how long? I have no clue.

Monday it started right up after disconnecting and reconnecting the batteries.

Today I went to swap out the CPS, only to find the bolt holding it in is frozen solid in place. After lots of penetrating lube and cussing, I couldn't budge it at all, and was afraid of stripping it out.

So after giving up on the CPS, I decided to unplug the ICP sensor and crank. Lo and behold, it started right up without missing a beat. So I killed the engine after a few seconds, plugged the ICP sensor back in, and again the truck started right up and ran flawlessly.

I guess I'll have to wait and see if it doesn't crank again, and try the ICP sensor thing a second time and see if I get the same result. I'm not yet convinced that's the problem.
 
#14 ·
And your VC connections are all good? Seems like I got the white smoke really bad when I was having those issues.
 
#15 ·
Yep, those are tighter than Mother Teresa. :eek: Was that in bad taste? :D

The passenger's side actually has all new wiring and gasket. Both are clipped in all the way, with retainer clips to prevent them from popping out. Plus it passes the buzz test, and I don't have any P1316 codes to indicate a wiring issue with the UVC harnesses.
 
#17 ·
I would be on the lookout for a spare PCM and IDM if it was me.

Tom
 
#21 ·
I can only track RPM's through AE since it's a 2002. There's no tach movement during cranking.

almost like a chaffed wire somewhere.I know I had an issue with the main harness where it attaches to the valve cover.Some how probably from my last mechanic skills the harness fell off the mount and had rubbed herself raw.
I'm just wondering what wire would chafe and the symptom would only show up during cranking

That was going to be my suggestion. Is there anything common weather wise when it won't start....ie damp.
The only time it seems to happen is when the truck sits long enough to completely cool down, such as sitting overnight or not being run for a few days. We've had zero rain here at my house in I don't know how long, with lows in the 50's and highs in the 80's. But on my road trip I ran into rain a few times while driving, and the rain didn't have any effect. Temps were a little cooler as I went north.
 
#31 ·
Yeah I hope that's not it. When I got it running yesterday, I did check blowby twice using the oil cap trick. First when it was cold, next time when it was warm. Oil cap didn't budge, so I don't have excessive crankcase pressure.

Truck fired right up this morning, temps were mid 50's.

Hey Curtis, you said you have 65psi fuel pressure, is that while you are cranking that you are seeing that? Didn't know if you were just stating that while running you can maintain 65psi.

Have you varied the length of time you leave the key "on" before cranking? Like you would if it were cold out and letting the GP's run a while.

The reason I ask is that mine will do the same thing on occasion, but I'm pretty positive mine is a fuel pressure issue, in that I have to let the fuel pump run for a while to re-fill my bowl after it sits for a length of time. I have never checked pressure while cranking to see what it reads. When it does it, I can crank and crank all I want and it won't start until I let the pump shut off before cranking.
Yes fuel pressure remains at 65 psi while cranking.

And I've varied the time of leaving the key on before cranking. I've tried immediately after the glow plug dash light went out, I've tried waiting longer, I've even run tests with AE with the key on, then tried to start afterwards with and without cycling the key. It seems that it doesn't matter when I try to crank. If it doesn't want to start, it won't. :(

Have you checked the connections on the PCM and IDM relay. They could be bad. I have had relays fail intermittent before. Could also be slight corrosion on the relay contact in the plug. You can clean those with a bit of emery cloth. I had the same issue with mine.
I've checked all connections except for the IDM. I've actually never touched the IDM in my truck.


For Dave, my ICP as I crank steadily rises. I've seen it rise as high as 2700 psi with long extended cranking. It hits 500 psi in about half a second of cranking.

Pocket, if you can, throw a gauge on your hpo and make sure its the same as your AE. Since you unplugged the ICP sensor and it started maybe, you have a mechanical issue with your ICP sensor or ICR but its "lying to the PCM? Once you unplugged it the pressure would go to the default which is higher and it over came the issue? Just a thought?
I do run an ICP gauge, and it reads about 50 psi lower on average than what AE reports. Not really enough of a discrepancy to concern me, it's always done that since I first installed the gauge.

The wire connection to the IPR might be loose.
I thought about that, but my truck never stalls or misses when it's running. Wouldn't a loose IPR connection also show symptoms when the truck is running, such as random stalling?
 
#23 ·
Hey Curtis, you said you have 65psi fuel pressure, is that while you are cranking that you are seeing that? Didn't know if you were just stating that while running you can maintain 65psi.

Have you varied the length of time you leave the key "on" before cranking? Like you would if it were cold out and letting the GP's run a while.

The reason I ask is that mine will do the same thing on occasion, but I'm pretty positive mine is a fuel pressure issue, in that I have to let the fuel pump run for a while to re-fill my bowl after it sits for a length of time. I have never checked pressure while cranking to see what it reads. When it does it, I can crank and crank all I want and it won't start until I let the pump shut off before cranking.
 
#25 ·
The reason I ask is that mine will do the same thing on occasion, but I'm pretty positive mine is a fuel pressure issue, in that I have to let the fuel pump run for a while to re-fill my bowl after it sits for a length of time. I have never checked pressure while cranking to see what it reads. When it does it, I can crank and crank all I want and it won't start until I let the pump shut off before cranking.
Funny I've had the same issue. Many times if I dont wait for WTS to shut off I can crank all I want and it wont start even in midsummer after driving it around. I figured it was a timer or something. My OBS you could simply jump in and crank it over.
 
#26 ·
I mightve missed it but whats ICP while cranking
 
#28 ·
He didnt say Dave, just this.

Truck cranks and won't start. As I crank, I get smoke, indicating that it's firing fuel. I have hooked up AE and datalogged as I cranked for an extended period. No codes pop up. I have tracked RPM's, ICP pressure/voltage/duty cycle, injector pulsewidth, mass fuel desired, and vehicle voltage. Everything is normal. Engine RPM's when cranking are just under 200, battery voltage holds at 11 volts while cranking. ICP pressure rises quickly as it should. Injector pulsewidth and mass fuel desired rises, showing that it's firing fuel. Plus it's smoking while cranking, so it's getting fuel.
 
#27 ·
Have you checked the connections on the PCM and IDM relay. They could be bad. I have had relays fail intermittent before. Could also be slight corrosion on the relay contact in the plug. You can clean those with a bit of emery cloth. I had the same issue with mine.
 
#29 ·
Pocket, if you can, throw a gauge on your hpo and make sure its the same as your AE. Since you unplugged the ICP sensor and it started maybe, you have a mechanical issue with your ICP sensor or ICR but its "lying to the PCM? Once you unplugged it the pressure would go to the default which is higher and it over came the issue? Just a thought?
 
#32 ·
And thanks to everyone for the suggestions. Keep them coming. I'll try to address each issue and suggestion as they come up. The more info that's posted, hopefully a solution will pop up. In the mean time, I'll be checking out suggestions made and see if I find anything.
 
#34 ·
I haven't been following this all the way, but have you checked you glowplug system?
 
#35 ·
Why would he need GP's this time of year?
 
#36 ·
id lean toward the PCM or IDM. in my expirience (i work in IT) on rare occasions computing components go bad, they appear to work sometimes, and diagnostics reports them as working, but when replaced the problem goes away. It may be due to a bad PCM or IDM component thats jsut not getting hit by the diags. seems like each tiem you get it to start your either cuttign power or re-establishign a connection. thoughts?
 
#37 ·
I am starting to lean in this direction also. With everything he has done I'm thinking he needs to get another ECM and see if he continues to have issues.
 
#45 ·
How old are your Injectors??

You may have one or possible a few that are dribbling fuel in when you park the truck. Mine has done the same thing on a few occasions. If it does it again don't crank the engine, just bump the engine over a few times, very short cranks then try to start it normally. You can also disconect the GPR and try a little starting fluid, if it starts that way you know it's a fuel problem.
I bet after the truck started you were blowing out alot of smoke.
 
#53 ·
Well I could try that to see if it works.

Injectors.... all but 2 are the originals. One came from Joe (CSIPSD) as a replacement for my stock AE injector (had close to the same mileage as my other injectors). Another is only a few months old. The rest have over 140K miles on them.
 
#46 ·
Sounds like either an CPS or an IDM or IPR issue to me.
 
#49 ·
Ive already done GP's got the Motocraft ones.

It starts pretty well with those, but still seems to take a little longer then id like for it to light
 
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