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  #1  
Old 10-29-2009, 07:26 AM
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Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

So, since they released this summer, has anyone used these yet? And if you have, how are they holding up? They can be had in lower comp ratios, anyone any info?



http://www.martincoadvertising.com/p...l-race-piston/

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  #2  
Old 10-29-2009, 01:27 PM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

Them are sweet looking... Interested as well
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  #3  
Old 10-29-2009, 02:02 PM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

Seems like I remember reading somewhere that forged pistons aren't meant for daily driving. Not sure though. Doesn't Ross make a set also? I'm thinking that's where I saw it.

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  #4  
Old 10-29-2009, 02:59 PM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

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Originally Posted by imelmo View Post
Seems like I remember reading somewhere that forged pistons aren't meant for daily driving. Not sure though. Doesn't Ross make a set also? I'm thinking that's where I saw it.

.
I have seen too many stock Mahle pictons cracked thru or with holes burnt thru them. One of the few items remaining I need for my final build is pistons/rings. Whatever I get will be coated too. These are looking good, but want to know if anyone has tried them yet.
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  #5  
Old 10-29-2009, 03:16 PM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

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Originally Posted by imelmo View Post
Seems like I remember reading somewhere that forged pistons aren't meant for daily driving. Not sure though. Doesn't Ross make a set also? I'm thinking that's where I saw it.

.

There is no reason why you cant run forged for daily driving. They require more cylinder to piston wall clearence than a cast, so warm ups are Manditory. But other than that I'd run them for sure. If you build a gas motor with a Blower, Turbo, Nitrous you wont find a builder that would recommend a cast piston so I can't belive it has taken this long for a Forged Diesel Piston, they probibly did just not for a ford. Oil cooled and Forged Just imagine how much abuse these things will be able to take.
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  #6  
Old 10-29-2009, 03:35 PM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

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There is no reason why you cant run forged for daily driving. They require more cylinder to piston wall clearence than a cast, so warm ups are Manditory. But other than that I'd run them for sure. If you build a gas motor with a Blower, Turbo, Nitrous you wont find a builder that would recommend a cast piston so I can't belive it has taken this long for a Forged Diesel Piston, they probibly did just not for a ford. Oil cooled and Forged Just imagine how much abuse these things will be able to take.

It has not taken this long for forged...Arias has had them for YEARS....

IF they don't have steel ringlands, Coatings do not work, then they are NOT a daily driver piston period. Forged pistons in a gasser are not even REMOTELY close to diesel. The Keystone rings will wear a coating off in no time, and then you will be able to put 2 rings in that upper land real quick.
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Old 10-29-2009, 03:39 PM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

Sounds like they need to spend some time on developing some rings that will live in a forged piston.


This is somthing I found in a article that adds to what Wacker was saying.

Hard anodizing the upper ring land helps, as does using a steel rectangular shaped top ring. But these forged diesel pistons are intended primarily for “short run” racing, not your average daily driver pickup truck that may also be used for towing.
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  #8  
Old 10-29-2009, 03:53 PM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

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Originally Posted by Wackerjr View Post
It has not taken this long for forged...Arias has had them for YEARS....

IF they don't have steel ringlands, Coatings do not work, then they are NOT a daily driver piston period. Forged pistons in a gasser are not even REMOTELY close to diesel. The Keystone rings will wear a coating off in no time, and then you will be able to put 2 rings in that upper land real quick.
So have you or Zane looked at or used these yet? Or not planning on it?
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  #9  
Old 10-29-2009, 03:58 PM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

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Originally Posted by Wackerjr View Post
It has not taken this long for forged...Arias has had them for YEARS....

IF they don't have steel ringlands, Coatings do not work, then they are NOT a daily driver piston period. Forged pistons in a gasser are not even REMOTELY close to diesel. The Keystone rings will wear a coating off in no time, and then you will be able to put 2 rings in that upper land real quick.
That's what I saw, Arias. Thanx.

.
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  #10  
Old 10-29-2009, 04:00 PM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

Simple amswer is don't use keystone rings

Total Seal makes a nice non keystone style ring.
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  #11  
Old 10-29-2009, 04:00 PM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

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Originally Posted by Wackerjr View Post
It has not taken this long for forged...Arias has had them for YEARS....

IF they don't have steel ringlands, Coatings do not work, then they are NOT a daily driver piston period. Forged pistons in a gasser are not even REMOTELY close to diesel. The Keystone rings will wear a coating off in no time, and then you will be able to put 2 rings in that upper land real quick.
I understand all of that, but the Duramax guys have had great success with running forged pistons in DD's.

It seems that MAHLE has figured out the correct piston ring and clearances to make these last in our applications.

I believe there is a duramax that has over 60,000 miles on it with the forged pistons.
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  #12  
Old 10-29-2009, 04:17 PM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

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I understand all of that, but the Duramax guys have had great success with running forged pistons in DD's.

It seems that MAHLE has figured out the correct piston ring and clearances to make these last in our applications.

I believe there is a duramax that has over 60,000 miles on it with the forged pistons.

THATS GREAT..........I have not heard that.....did they change ring design?
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  #13  
Old 10-29-2009, 04:54 PM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

Well let me give just a little information for you all. I have been involved with Mahle from day one on the development of this piston in the Duramax engine. The original design goal was for the piston to last 25,000 miles. It's done that and more. As for a 60,000 mile motor I will not believe it until I've seen it. We know of none that are over about 42,000 so far as testing is ongoing. The concern is not for the piston design itself but over the fact that we cannot use a Keystone ring for the top ring. A diesel by nature puts a lot of soot in the cylinder, this gets in between the top ring and the piston. A Keystone ring scrubs itself clean each time the motor warms up but it needs to be run on a steel surface so it cannot be used on a forged piston. To date no one has found a way to get an insert into the forging and for it to stay put over time.

So what has been done in the forged piston was to hard anodize the top ring groove and go back to a normal top ring. The hope is the hard anodize and the ring will hold up but for now we just tell everyone we do not know for sure. We can get these made in just about any compression ratio that you want, with or without valve reliefs, pin height changes and so on can all be handled. So far we've had 7.3L Ford, Duramax and 5.9 Cummins pistons made.
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  #14  
Old 10-29-2009, 05:50 PM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

Steve sorry for the mis-quote. I'm not sure where I got that information from. Also, Steve I'm pretty sure you where looking at 50,000 miles out of forged pistons. At least that's what I've seen you post about.

Even though, 42,000 is pretty impressive.
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Old 10-29-2009, 07:20 PM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

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Well let me give just a little information for you all. I have been involved with Mahle from day one on the development of this piston in the Duramax engine. The original design goal was for the piston to last 25,000 miles. It's done that and more. As for a 60,000 mile motor I will not believe it until I've seen it. We know of none that are over about 42,000 so far as testing is ongoing. The concern is not for the piston design itself but over the fact that we cannot use a Keystone ring for the top ring. A diesel by nature puts a lot of soot in the cylinder, this gets in between the top ring and the piston. A Keystone ring scrubs itself clean each time the motor warms up but it needs to be run on a steel surface so it cannot be used on a forged piston. To date no one has found a way to get an insert into the forging and for it to stay put over time.

So what has been done in the forged piston was to hard anodize the top ring groove and go back to a normal top ring. The hope is the hard anodize and the ring will hold up but for now we just tell everyone we do not know for sure. We can get these made in just about any compression ratio that you want, with or without valve reliefs, pin height changes and so on can all be handled. So far we've had 7.3L Ford, Duramax and 5.9 Cummins pistons made.
Steve,

Would this in any way compromise combustion pressure testing data from that cylinder?


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  #16  
Old 10-29-2009, 08:32 PM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

why not gas port a piston?
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  #17  
Old 10-29-2009, 09:10 PM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

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why not gas port a piston?
Soot would plug up the holes in my opinion.
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  #18  
Old 10-29-2009, 10:12 PM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

We are hoping for a 50,000 mile pistons life but the design goal was set lower. We did not want to over promise on something we were not sure of. The idea was to build a racing piston not a daily driver street piston. It's very rare that you can get both out of one.

Gas porting works well for a short time limit as the gas ports puts a lot of pressure on the ring. Not sure but my guess is we would really kill the overall life of the piston and ring doing it. Also this would put more soot into the top ring area. I do not think they would plug right away but they may over time, anyone want to try it on there dime?
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  #19  
Old 10-29-2009, 11:03 PM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

Are these pistons available to buy now?
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  #20  
Old 10-30-2009, 12:40 AM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

yes they are, alot in cummins but in my new motor i think i am going ross over mahale
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  #21  
Old 10-30-2009, 02:39 AM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

after seeing the stock pistons in my motor that blew i dont mind goin back w/ stockers. as much heat as the saw over the years and there was only one 1/4" crack on one piston on the lip of the bowl. but anyway, those pistons do look sweet, if only i was rich lol.
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  #22  
Old 10-30-2009, 04:13 AM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

Your looking around $2500 for a set of forged Mahle. These can be built to whatever spec. you want. You dream up what compression ratio and what valve clearance you need and it takes 4 - 6 weeks to have them shipped off. The pistons come with rings, wrist pins, wrist pin clips and coated skirts.
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  #23  
Old 10-30-2009, 04:19 AM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

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Originally Posted by Diesel Tech View Post
Well let me give just a little information for you all. I have been involved with Mahle from day one on the development of this piston in the Duramax engine. The original design goal was for the piston to last 25,000 miles. It's done that and more. As for a 60,000 mile motor I will not believe it until I've seen it. We know of none that are over about 42,000 so far as testing is ongoing. The concern is not for the piston design itself but over the fact that we cannot use a Keystone ring for the top ring. A diesel by nature puts a lot of soot in the cylinder, this gets in between the top ring and the piston. A Keystone ring scrubs itself clean each time the motor warms up but it needs to be run on a steel surface so it cannot be used on a forged piston. To date no one has found a way to get an insert into the forging and for it to stay put over time.

So what has been done in the forged piston was to hard anodize the top ring groove and go back to a normal top ring. The hope is the hard anodize and the ring will hold up but for now we just tell everyone we do not know for sure. We can get these made in just about any compression ratio that you want, with or without valve reliefs, pin height changes and so on can all be handled. So far we've had 7.3L Ford, Duramax and 5.9 Cummins pistons made.
Steve, adding the material up top for a keystone ring is not rocket science (it was back when we first did it though). Work has progressed far since the early 80's with Plasma Spray Deposition/Thermal Spray Coating/Fused Coatings. Back then we built up 1" thick coatings of varying materials ranging from a cer-met to high strength steel in one continuous process. The pistons could very easily be near net shaped machined, sprayed to fill top land area and the top/bowl, and then final machined. Current processes do add some cost, but are minimal compared to 25 yrs back. This would provide a monolithic forged AL piston with all the quality high temp capabilities on the top. If you are working with Mahle, we should talk more.
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Old 10-30-2009, 05:02 AM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

WTF? 25,000 Mile life of a diesel motor. Why the heck does it not last over 25,000 miles????
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Old 10-30-2009, 05:13 AM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

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Your looking around $2500 for a set of forged Mahle. These can be built to whatever spec. you want. You dream up what compression ratio and what valve clearance you need and it takes 4 - 6 weeks to have them shipped off. The pistons come with rings, wrist pins, wrist pin clips and coated skirts.
glad I only need 6 pistons!
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Old 10-30-2009, 05:19 AM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

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WTF? 25,000 Mile life of a diesel motor. Why the heck does it not last over 25,000 miles????
competition is what there made for, a true comp motor gets tore down and inspected every season or every other
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  #27  
Old 10-30-2009, 05:29 PM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

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Steve, adding the material up top for a keystone ring is not rocket science (it was back when we first did it though). Work has progressed far since the early 80's with Plasma Spray Deposition/Thermal Spray Coating/Fused Coatings. Back then we built up 1" thick coatings of varying materials ranging from a cer-met to high strength steel in one continuous process. The pistons could very easily be near net shaped machined, sprayed to fill top land area and the top/bowl, and then final machined. Current processes do add some cost, but are minimal compared to 25 yrs back. This would provide a monolithic forged AL piston with all the quality high temp capabilities on the top. If you are working with Mahle, we should talk more.
Give me a call as I'm willing to try most anything to get a better part.
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  #28  
Old 10-30-2009, 06:26 PM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

I have had a set of arias pistons with totsl seal rings in my motor for three full seasons of pulling, with no problems at all, The pistons still looked great when the motor was pulled down

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  #29  
Old 10-30-2009, 08:18 PM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

Where are you guys getting the idea that forged pistons are not good for daily drivers? Other than a bit of noise at start up, they are no worse than a regular piston over time. Or are you speaking purely about DIESEL daily drivers?
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  #30  
Old 10-31-2009, 02:41 AM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

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Where are you guys getting the idea that forged pistons are not good for daily drivers? Other than a bit of noise at start up, they are no worse than a regular piston over time. Or are you speaking purely about DIESEL daily drivers?
They are saying this specifically because years ago Arias made the mistake of selling people forged pistons with a keystone ring and no cast iron ring carrier. They made false claims that their hard coat anodizing could handle the wear that a keystone(taper) style ring causes on aluminum...
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  #31  
Old 10-31-2009, 03:02 AM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

This is a Diesel issue with the keystone ring in a forged piston. Like I said before if you only use it for racing and it only is going to run at the track there is no issue as they are now. A race truck most likely only see's about 15 minutes run time at an event so they will last plenty long enough for several seasons of use.
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Old 10-31-2009, 05:07 AM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

Not quite a derail as the op seems to want performance pistons.
But seems like a few month back there was a company making
some kind of new dmax piston. Looked all black from what I recall.
Anyone else catch that one or know if they have them for psd
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  #33  
Old 10-31-2009, 05:33 AM
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

That's us! The all Black piston is something we are testing. We call it "Black Magic". It is a plating process we have found that rejects heat and is good for 2000 degrees for short burst. Worked great for record runs at Bonneville this year! We still do not know how it will hold up in the ring groove area but it is being tested at this time. We have tore down motors that have many passes at 1900 EGT's by the end of the run and they look the same as the day they were put in.
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  #34  
Old 10-31-2009, 12:59 PM
Suns_PSD
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

I noticed the other day that the stock Cummins ISX pistons are completely black, Inside and out. I don't think it's just a coating as I saw it on a new and an old piston as well and it was not worn off at all even on the used pistons.
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  #35  
Old 10-31-2009, 01:19 PM
tons0torque
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
I noticed the other day that the stock Cummins ISX pistons are completely black, Inside and out. I don't think it's just a coating as I saw it on a new and an old piston as well and it was not worn off at all even on the used pistons.
The newer ISX engines use steele monotherm pistons. Mahle makes them for the ISB too, but they are crazy expensive. Really the ultimate pistons though, you get more strength than a forged piston with the longevity of a cast piston with a steel insert.
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  #36  
Old 10-31-2009, 06:12 PM
Diesel Tech
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Re: Mahle Forged Diesel Racing Pistons

You forgot one thing.............. they are heavy!
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