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Throttle tip in too touchy with spartan anyone else

8K views 64 replies 17 participants last post by  danbonzo 
#1 ·
Ok throttle pedal tip in is extremely touchy with both the 275 and 310 tunes, So bad that is hard to drive sometimes cuz the truck will get to jumping or hopping. The only way to tow is drop it back to the 150 tune. anybody else seeing this or do i maybe have a pedal voltage issue on the truck?

Travis
 
#3 ·
Well, the 275 is not bad for me. The 310 is an all out race tune though, and Matt told me that he will not make changes to throttle response for that reason. I get unbelievable surging with my 310 production file, so bad it jerks the truck violently sometimes, and Matt said the only way to correct this is to take away the throttle response and that would make it take off like the 210 tune. My violent surging is due to my Air Dog DF-165 pump though.
 
#4 ·
275/310 makes no diffrence at all which tune it is in, that kinda seems like bull i would think that throttle tip in adjustments could be made to make it smoother, the truck is not driveable in traffic somedays

Travis
 
#8 ·
i have whatever is the latest and greatest from matt... he didnt have a name, he just said try it, about a month or so ago..driveability was better, power may be up, but not substantial enough to really say, but low end was a bit noticeably stronger. matt thought the mpg may go up as well..not sure as i havent put any distance on it. nice tune though.
 
#10 ·
Have Tried it both ways and neither affect it, The 275 tune is just as bad,

I actually tried to tow a customers pulling truck back to him in 275 and it was impossible it felt like it was going to throw the driveline out of it, I put it in the smaller tune and it handled it fine,

I have had many 500+ hp 7.3's and one that is way more then that and i bet i could tow with my pulling truck better then i could the 275-310 tune. Im not trying tobad mouth anyone here, i just think thier is some refining that needs to be done and not enought people are willing to talk about it, I have 5 spartan tuned trucks in my area and everyone has similar problem to a diffrent extent.

Now i can tell you from expierence years ago 7.3's with 300cc injectors and poor tuning acted very similar to what i am complaining about, AND it was fixed by the tuners sitting down and fine tuning it.

Travis
 
#12 ·
becuse it takes way too long to swap between tunes, and other then throttle tip in the truck performs great with the 275 and the 310 tunes.

i think with refinement it would be fine, im not looking to argue with ya i just wanna know who expiernces a similar issue,

Its kinda like why put a bigger tubo on it just spray it debate, you can tell me how much better spraying it is better till your blue in your face and ill always put a bigger charger on it.

Travis
 
#13 ·
I agree that it is bad, more so on the 310 tune. But I aknowledge that it wouldnt do that on the track or on the dyno, and that Matt didn't write it for me to daily drive on the road or tow with. That is why I am saying what I am saying. I knew going in to buying the tuner that it would take 15 minutes to change a tune. When I daily drive I run the 210 tune, it doesnt have the touchy throttle. When I go to a diesel event, do any testing for Matt, or wanna go dick off on a back road, I run the 310 tune. Im not saying to do the same thing. Send Matt an email or call him about it if it concerns you, he will write you a more refined tune I'm sure.
 
#14 ·
How do you deal w/ letting the adaptive learning start all over again everytime you reload the tunes? Or does it? For me it felt like the the 310 tune wasn't as twitchy after of driving it for a week straight than when it first went in to the pcm. Granted its still an absurd race tune (and thats why we love it) but it did feel more seemless the more I let the pcm learn.
 
#16 ·
Every single time I have gone to a faster set of injectors I have to take a day or so worth of short little stops for fine tuning the throttle tip in until the truck behaves itself again.

Being that those sorts of things make up the more time consuming parts of tuning refinement, it's no wonder they're often the last things addressed. Especially if a program is intended for race only use.

Problem is, as Travis pointed out, the inability to just flip a knob back and forth between programs means that the file becomes basically useless because nobody is going to sit for minutes at a time loading and unloading files all damn day long, and not too many of these 6.4's are dedicated race trucks, lol.

Sounds like the guy just needs to take a little time to iron out a few kinks. I know a touchy throttle is unacceptable for me. I'll attack that right from the get go. Hearing R&P backlash over and over again makes me cringe.
 
#17 ·
Yes, but who is going to daily drive/tow with a 310 horsepower tune most of the time? I mean I could see someone using it a lot when they first get it, but driving in traffic with it gets old. A 310 horsepower tune is not going to be the best riding tune. Its not meant to be th best riding tune. That is why it performs at the track, not driving around or pulling a trailer. It has a purpose, and racing is that purpose.
 
#19 ·
I drive around in a much more powerful program than that every single day, all day. My DD program would be equivalent to a 350hp program for you.

Your problem is that you obviously don't understand that peak power and off-idle refinement are two separate things. If you're running all the same hardware there's no reason why the truck cannot be just as tame down low even when in a hotter program if you wanted to spend time to make it so.

Power output isn't just like taking throttle vs power and just bumping the entire curve upward until the truck makes ___hp at peak and you just deal with only being able to make a minimum of ___hp right off idle. You can call for stock power right off idle. This is proven by the fact that when you remove the program the off-idle refinement immediately comes back. It's not like you're running some kind of radical nozzle or something that can't be tamed.
 
#18 ·
i plan on doing all of the above with at minimum the 275 tune and most likely the 310 tune, i see no reason not to charlies truck makes deep into the 600 hp mark and has no problem towing a trailer and other then the throttle being way to touchy i have yet to see a reason why the 275 or 310 can not be used tow with, as long as u know how to drive with gauges.


i have towed with alot wilder of setups big single nasty nozzles etc.

Travis
 
#21 ·
I see all your points, only thing I can assume is that since its being billed as a "race tune" wouldn't the majority of the consumers purchasing it, want it to behave based on that description, with a "touchy" throttle? Isn't Spartan's reputation to date is based on what the masses say about them? So is not logical to also assume that they aim to please that very source of bread and butter so to speak, they have to pay the bills as well. Albeit w/ respect to the handful of people who want it a particular way, pretty sure they do care about those individuals wants and needs also, because they have addressed mine when I've asked.
 
#22 ·
Hi brand new to the site, just have a few questions, im sure they have been asked in the past. First been trying to register in the spartan forums but it says the admin has it turned off? Second, I have a 08 CC superduty build 3. I am going to do an exhaust intake tune etc, does a 5" make much of a difference over a 4" exhaust as far as tone, power noise etc? My truck will probably never see the track but I like big power like most of you, am I not going to be happy with a 310 tune? Will it work for me without other engine mods? Thanks for any advice
 
#25 ·
Welcome to PSN! :ford:

I can't help with your first question, but to your second question, 4" will be enough, but 5" will give it a deeper tone. If this is your first modded diesel I'm betting you'll like the 275 or 310, that's over 500hp to the wheels! :evil

Dave
 
#23 ·
I agree with you guys completely. Going from the 7.3 where you can go click and your back to stock, or having to wait 15 min for a tune to swap, I want to leave it in something all the time. I have not raced my 6.4 and probably wont. I just dont beat on it very much at all. I have had the 310 loaded in for probably 2,000 miles and have kinda gotten used to it. Its fairly touchy, especially down low and on bumpy roads. But I like the power and it picked up several MPG over the 210. Which is why I have left it loaded. But I would also like to see a refined low end version, I'm sure Matt can take care of it. But I can see both sides of the argument.
 
#24 ·
i cant say too much about the touchy throttle besides my old race car with a triple carbon plate clutch, hahaha!
it seems more as a personal preferance at this point. which i think can be managed by matt and the spartan crew.
 
#27 ·
now charlie waas bringing some very valid points, and i agree to everything he said, It can be done i just dont think it has been done but needs to be done, I see no reason someone using thier head should not be able to use the 275 or 310 tune to tow, but its not even that it gets hopping so bad trying to drive it sometimes you gotta get completly out of it and start over and cassie has complained it has about gotten her rearended a few times.

travis
 
#29 ·
i agree. just charlie is bringing in his 7.3 stats where they really arent relevant. charlie knows tuning, and he could explain this much better w/o throwing people off comparing apples to oranges. charlie never skips an opportunity to pimp his truck..lol what did he dyno at beans again?? :hehe: j/k chuck
 
#31 ·
I Love the raw power and throttle response, especially off the line. It's much more responsive than the 275.

Although my truck becomes very hard to drive after the TC locks up in just normal driving conditions. Which is 85% of the time around town. This is when, as some of you have mentioned, the truck bucks violently. So bad, I too have to completely back out of the throttle and slowly ease foot back into it. On the high way, the only way I can get it to stop bucking is engage the cruise control.

No way my wife could drive this truck anymore. I've always run the hottest tunes in my Power Strokes for every day driving. You know, if you got it use it kind of mentality plus I can never go backwards after I've experience one level of power. However, this time, I may have to go back to the 275 for driveability. It's only been a few days so I'll give it (310) a few more days and see if anything settles out.

Cheers.
 
#32 ·
I actually thought that the smoke off idle and the throttle touchiness had gone down with the 310

Travis, i have had pretty good luck towing with the 275V3 which 275 do you have?
The other thing is traction bars, once i got mine put on the drivablilty went way way up, my wife drives my truck from time to time on the 310 and the only thing she has said is that she has to be carefull passing cars or getting up to speed fast without smoking everyone out.

I do however feel that the 275 was touchier, but i did experience bucking and stuff when i first got the 310 but i didnt have traction bars, now that i do, i have only seen it do it once or twice, and the only reason i dont tow with it is cylinder pressure other than that i love the tune,

What i dont understand is why not leave the explosive power in the peddle to like 3/4 throttle rather than 1/4 throttle, let the last little bit of the peddle be where the power really comes on and the rest almost like stock?
 
#33 ·
I actually thought that the smoke off idle and the throttle touchiness had gone down with the 310

Travis, i have had pretty good luck towing with the 275V3 which 275 do you have?
The other thing is traction bars, once i got mine put on the drivablilty went way way up, my wife drives my truck from time to time on the 310 and the only thing she has said is that she has to be carefull passing cars or getting up to speed fast without smoking everyone out.

I do however feel that the 275 was touchier, but i did experience bucking and stuff when i first got the 310 but i didnt have traction bars, now that i do, i have only seen it do it once or twice, and the only reason i dont tow with it is cylinder pressure other than that i love the tune,

What i dont understand is why not leave the explosive power in the peddle to like 3/4 throttle rather than 1/4 throttle, let the last little bit of the peddle be where the power really comes on and the rest almost like stock?
And we have a winner...

The truck has stock injectors, so there's no reason you all shouldn't have stock-like driveability if you so desire. Or whatever amount of increased response over that if you wish, but not to the extent where not even the smallest amount of pedal leaves the truck driveable.

IMO, the pedal position should directly (or as closely as practical) parallel the power output of the engine, such that 50% throttle is around 50% power, so on and so forth.

I have no doubt that the guys are more than capable of giving you that. IMO, when a tuner states that something is for "racing" it means that's where they focused their TIME. What everyone must understand is that TIME is the biggest factor in tuning. Any tuner worth his salt can eventually get nearly anything dialed in juuuust how you want it. But there's only so much time, so eventually may never come. So in reality, given the limited time constraint, some things must be prioritized, and in a program labeled "race" drivability isn't the #1 priority. Totally understandable.

HOWEVER....

In the other reality that you guys can't quickly change programs on the fly, we come to the issue where even a "race" program could benefit from more time spent on the bottom end of the calibration because in reality you guys are driving these trucks on the street everyday in most cases. And you want that power... with the driveability you've become accustomed to from your CR.

My point is that while it takes time that apparently has been prioritized elsewhere to date (on that file), it can most certainly be done. Especially so with an injection system as precise as what you all have.
 
#35 ·
Its a race tune plain and simple, mine is the same way but I got used to it and now don't even know its a problem. If you want a smooth daily driver tune run the 210 HP tune that is its purpose. There are race tunes out there for Dodges where the damn gauges don't even work, I guess I just can't understand why anyone would wanna gripe when they have a 560+ RWHP street truck with tune only about the throttle being too touchy, once again its a "310 HP RACE TUNE" not the "310 Driving Miss Daisy Street Tune." In closing, I would like to say that I am sure there is a reason that it does it, possibly it has to do with the aggressive fueling pattern of the race tunes but everyone just needs to be happy.
 
#36 ·
Its a race tune plain and simple, mine is the same way but I got used to it and now don't even know its a problem. If you want a smooth daily driver tune run the 210 HP tune that is its purpose. There are race tunes out there for Dodges where the damn gauges don't even work, I guess I just can't understand would wanna gripe when they have a 560+RWHP truck with tune only about throttle being touchy, JMO.
Tell me this...

What exactly is the benefit to an overly touchy throttle when racing?

None...

The throttle isn't touchy because "it's a race tune". The throttle is touchy because they didn't waste their time ironing out the bottom end of the file. Which is understandable in order to get a file out the door for a "race" truck. But even then, with time, it would eventually be nice to iron it out for them too. Bucking and jerking down the return road doesn't look any cooler than it does doing it in front of the Wendy's on your way to work each day.


Maybe the way they are tuning at the moment they haven't uncovered enough code to have access to that level of fine tuning. I haven't the foggiest idea.

But it just seems childish the way that some people will almost try to make a "race" anything purposefully coarse and jumpy, as if that makes the truck faster. I suppose some people like to make a truck look like it's so powerful that it can barely be driven at slow speeds. Although I doubt that's the case here.

I suspect that it's probably just a case of only so much time to go around.
 
#38 ·
John- i see what you are saying and i understand, but what is the purpose of 560 rwhp if you cant use it, Im sure as fuk not going to drive around here, on a 210 tune, so my wife can get waxed buy some tool bag in a CR, when she can blow his doors off on 37's and laugh about it, if i leave the big tune on. Like i said though im not really complaining, im just saying it would make more sense for the power to be on the big end of the peddle but thats just me.

Thats might point, no one wants to run the 210 unless they have to... mine has only ever been loaded 2 times, once to try it, the other to tow 16k and i wished i had the 275 the whole time.
 
#40 ·
With all of the bitching going on here, not one person has bothered to take the time and send an email yet as Jeffery suggested.

Sure, we can write a custom file with the throttle dampened a bit if anyone so desires. The reason I have not done so for production is that despite whatever preconceptions have been established here, we get about ten positive comments to the aggressive throttle response for every one complaint.

I'm more than willing to work with anyone who wants it, but do not expect it to be anywhere close to exact on the first, second, third, forth attempt....and likely more. I don't care who thinks they know what about tuning and so forth, the complexity of the engine controls and network interface with this engine has NOT been seen before. It is not a 256kb file (7.3) or a 448kb/512kb (6.0). It is an 8.4Mb file. The amount of changes needed to completely remap the throttle to a persons liking are not even close to simply multiplying a handful of tables such as the other trucks.
 
#44 ·
I am in no way trying to step on toes, but I know that I have a similar situation for tuning that we had to deal with over here. Its a transmission but its similar.

A 4L60e has about 20 tables that you can mess with in transmission tuning... they are pretty easy to deal with, almost anyone can work the tune in it even with no prior experience tuning. The new 6L80e that we have in the new Corvettes, Camaros, and trucks have over 400 tables that need messed with different shift times and shift patterns for what location the shifter is in and what not. Its taken over 3 years to get a tune to where it needs to be for drivability in a performance transmission tune and we have hundreds of good tuners working on it.

I myself know that this takes time and its personal prefrence as to the touchy throttle.

I want to have as much power as possible and have the truck drive smooth and calm at cruising speed like stock. I tow a 16K horse trailer all the time and drive the truck daily. When I get to a tune, I will work with whomever I get it from to be that way.

just my .02

BTW I think that its AWESOME that they can get this much power from tuning... it blows my mind... what kind of power can they make with huge chargers, twin pumps, big rails, and injectors with big nossles? 1000 rwhp? I bet we see it...
 
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