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View Poll Results: Would you like to see more talk on this subject
yes, very interested 62 88.57%
no, not interested 8 11.43%
No way, I'll lose money 0 0%
Voters: 70. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #1  
Old 04-17-2009, 10:41 PM
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Open source tuning

Discuss.
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  #2  
Old 04-17-2009, 10:57 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

I have no interest in tuning myself but have learned a lot from the discussions.
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  #3  
Old 04-17-2009, 10:57 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Discuss.
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  #4  
Old 04-17-2009, 11:20 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

Mildly interested. It's something I like learning about, but I grown to love live tuning. With all the other BS in my life, this would be another distraction. Maybe next year when I get one project finished and move to the new play toy.

Unless the price is that which I could not pass up.
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  #5  
Old 04-18-2009, 12:07 AM
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Re: Open source tuning

I said "yes" simply because the lock and key everyone's got on these archaic dinosaurs is stupid. It costs big money to do anything with these trucks and that includes tuning.

Hell, these trucks are anywhere between 6-14 years old and they're old technology. Like you said, David, gassers have been getting open-source tuning junk for years....but only because the gains are marginal. Of course, once someone figures out that big power is available just in the tuning (diesels), those that have.....well...have it. Those few who have it figure that those who don't can get bent and fork over big bucks for their secrets.

It's really sad. But then again, if cracking code is your bread and butter, you should get paid.
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  #6  
Old 04-18-2009, 12:12 AM
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Re: Open source tuning

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatus12r View Post
I said "yes" simply because the lock and key everyone's got on these archaic dinosaurs is stupid. It costs big money to do anything with these trucks and that includes tuning.

Hell, these trucks are anywhere between 6-14 years old and they're old technology. Like you said, David, gassers have been getting open-source tuning junk for years....but only because the gains are marginal. Of course, once someone figures out that big power is available just in the tuning (diesels), those that have.....well...have it. Those few who have it figure that those who don't can get bent and fork over big bucks for their secrets.

It's really sad. But then again, if cracking code is your bread and butter, you should get paid.
I just sold the fuelie set up off my mustang (going carb.)this week because I got tired of the eec glitches. I hope the diesel tuners can get past all the eec crap and make it alot more friendly .
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  #7  
Old 04-18-2009, 02:52 AM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by cleatus12r View Post
I said "yes" simply because the lock and key everyone's got on these archaic dinosaurs is stupid. It costs big money to do anything with these trucks and that includes tuning.

Hell, these trucks are anywhere between 6-14 years old and they're old technology. Like you said, David, gassers have been getting open-source tuning junk for years....but only because the gains are marginal. Of course, once someone figures out that big power is available just in the tuning (diesels), those that have.....well...have it. Those few who have it figure that those who don't can get bent and fork over big bucks for their secrets.

It's really sad. But then again, if cracking code is your bread and butter, you should get paid.






.....o wait, we are not talking about a durmax are we?

Even though there are programs like EFIlive, the tuners STILL make lots of profit because there simply are not enough people that can do it themselves or even care to to even mess with it. Most everyone shares there tips and tricks in the 6.6L world.
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  #8  
Old 04-18-2009, 02:54 AM
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Re: Open source tuning

Not interested. I'll leave it to a trusted tuner.
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  #9  
Old 04-18-2009, 05:21 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by PTSUPERD View Post
Not interested. I'll leave it to a trusted tuner.


I'll take it one step further, I'll leave it to a trusted tuner but be sure and explain what I'd like. Alot can go wrong with a "newb" tuning his own ride..... IMO of course

Cowboy Steve
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  #10  
Old 04-18-2009, 05:55 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

I'm always interested in learning as much as possible about anything I have. I'm really interested in how all the computer components work and how they control the drivetrain; and have the ability to tell the computer exactly what I want it to do. Of course I have a LOT to learn first.
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  #11  
Old 04-20-2009, 05:24 AM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by PTSUPERD View Post
Not interested. I'll leave it to a trusted tuner.
And you'll leave the engine and air work to a trusted mechanic.
And you'll leave the trans work for the trusted shop.

What's left? Ok, you can change the oil and rotate your tires


But seriously, while I have no desire to tune my truck, I would like to see in-depth how the tuning is done, what changes do to interact with other parameters, etc. While I did, do and will buy my tunes from the trusted tuners, I sure would like to know more about the tuning processes.

With the attitudes that were posted on the previously delete thread, it is clear that Open Source tuning will Not ever be a reality for Ford 7.3 PCMs. God forbid I read someone else's BIN file!!

But then it is an Old Obsolete dinosaur - So who cares - RIGHT??

We'll all just go out and buy new 6.4 common rails - oh wait, they will be obsolete come July Maybe we'll all wait for the Fiat-Ford diesel in 2010....
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  #12  
Old 04-20-2009, 05:47 AM
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Re: Open source tuning

Oh, and here are a few edited excerpts from an old thread (fit to publish) for some ideas:

Disclaimer: I have no dog in this hunt and I don't tune.
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Originally Posted by cleatus12r View Post
It's also illegal.
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Originally Posted by cleatus12r View Post

Modifications Copyright 2005 DP-Tuner........1. DP-TUNER hereby provides or causes to be provided to RECIPIENT the DP-T Products relative to which RECIPIENT has purchased a license, for the sole purpose of enabling RECIPIENT to use the licensed DP-T Products, including but not limited to the software included in the DP-T Products, only within the scope of the license set forth in Paragraph 2 of this Agreement. ..2. RECIPIENT acknowledges and agrees that DP-T Products embody, utilize, and/or encompass patents, trademarks, copyrights, trade secrets, and/or confidential information and other intellectual property (collectively "the DP-T Property") in which DP-TUNER has an interest, that provide competitive advantages to DP-TUNER, are central and critical to the ongoing, legitimate business of DP-TUNER, and would cause irreparable injury to DP-TUNER if exploited without permission from DP-TUNER. Therefore, RECIPIENT shall use each separate DP-T Product provided herewith and the DP-T Property included therein only during and as part of the operation of a single motor vehicle, without reproducing, distributing, publicly displaying, or publicly performing the DP-T Property, or preparing derivative works based on the DP-T Property. DP-TUNER hereby grants RECIPIENT a nonexclusive license to the provided DP-T Products and the accompanying DP-T Property only to the extent necessary to permit such limited use. RECIPIENT shall refrain from reproducing, distributing, publicly displaying, or publicly performing the DP-T Property, or preparing derivative works based on the DP-T Property and any portion thereof, from attempting to reverse engineer the DP-T Products, and from otherwise attempting to discern the content of the DP-T Products or the DP-T Property, how the DP-T Products operate, and the design and/or content of hardware and software encompassed by the DP-T Products. RECIPIENT shall not transfer DP-T Products or DP-T Property or any interest therein, including but not limited to the nonexclusive license granted above, by sale, rental, leasing, lending, or otherwise, to any third party. RECIPIENT shall inquire with DP-TUNER regarding any questions or concerns RECIPIENT has or may have about the design, construction, and operation of the DP-T Products, without attempting to resolve such questions or concerns by engaging in conduct prohibited by this Agreement.

Straight from the binary.

Don't do it.
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True, true, Cody. However, if everyone played the game by the rules, we wouldn't be reading "Copyright Diesel Power" off of a number of chips that WE didn't program -- as recently as yesterday, as a matter of fact!
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Originally Posted by Groovy Chick View Post

FWIW, does anybody ever stop to take into account for a minute that every chip programmed today also has "Copyright Ford Motor Company" embedded in the code as well? Oddly enough, everyone seems to ignore that when it's convenient for them.

Like David said, if Ford wanted to make a stink about it, they could (just ask Mike Wesley). The only reason they don't bother hassling anyone now is because those processors haven't been made in five years. Heck, Bill could line up people around the block to sue for copyright infringement, but what it really amounts to is: What would it accomplish? Rather than fight, we simply released Minotaur and let customers hack away with our blessings.

Reading the calibration section of a DP-Tuner chip, TW chip, TS chip, PHP chip, or any other chip for that matter is not illegal. If you then modify those contents, it's no different than reading the Ford factory calibration and modifying it. Those changes become YOUR changes and the copyright of the original author no longer applies. However, if anyone distributes the unmodified calibrations or market them AS THEIR OWN (not directed at you, Cody!), copyright infringement laws come into play.

Hate to use Wikipedia as a source, but I only have a limited time to edit this post. In the United States and many other countries, even if an artifact or process is protected by trade secrets, reverse-engineering the artifact or process is often lawful as long as it is obtained legitimately.
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The 95-97 PCM code says, "Copyright 1988 FORD Motor Compaoz". Is there any reason for the word "compaoz"? Is it a typographical error no one cared to fix or does it have a different meaning?
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Originally Posted by cleatus12r View Post

I know the SD PCMs say "Copyright Ford Motor Co."

Has anyone ever google'd the names of the people listed in the OBS PCM hex? Kinda eye-opening how some of them STILL work for Ford. Others are engineering professors, etc.
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**I'll play devils advocate here**

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Originally Posted by Powerstroke Racer View Post

What are we doing then every time we sell a chip for profit

Did I miss the part where the guy is trying to profit from it?
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Originally Posted by bbbxcursion View Post
I don't appreciate it when someone pulls a file of a PCM I did, but I can't really stop it either. It happens a lot more than people think. SCT had a glitch awhile back in Advantage that made this very easy. Some people saved that version before they did an Advantage update. This is a big can of worms and I'm not getting involved more than I already have. These threads should vanish IMO.

Isn't that exactly what every tuner has done to modify tunes for the stock Ford PCM?

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Originally Posted by mattr66 View Post
For this reason alone I code my files with a little "tag" that lets me know where they came from (not easy to locate in a binary editor either). Not that I could really do anything about it, but it's good to know someone would like my program so much they would want to cheat off of it. Makes me feel warm inside.
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Originally Posted by mattr66 View Post

The TS based chips have better copy protection on them than most. I lost some files a while back and couldn't even read my own chips to get the files back....

...
...
So, you are signing your name to the files you hacked from someone who hacked them from Ford?

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Originally Posted by Groovy Chick View Post
Matt, it's a great idea. We put messages in our calibrations all the time, too. It makes it more amusing when the files wind up in our possession on someone ELSE's chip. We even have some out there directed at certain individuals who we KNOW are using our files and trying to pass them off as theirs. It amuses us to think what their reactions have been since they obviously can't call us on it.

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Originally Posted by Groovy Chick View Post
I say keep doing it, Matt. Eventually people may get the message.

So, let me get this straight, Bill writes some software that hacks and modifies the original Ford code, and then you are copyrighting the IP of the Hack? Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the hacking work going on that gets me more powa, but calling it theft or infringement of hack of previously hacked code is a stretch.

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Originally Posted by Powerstroke Racer View Post
No, read my above post.
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Originally Posted by Powerstroke Racer View Post

Did either of you start with a blank screen or did you start with a file from someone else.

Personally I would like to see more people get interested in tuning themselves.
Agree

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Originally Posted by mattr66 View Post
Yeah, I've seen a pretty damn funny one in one of the files I got from Bill.....

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Originally Posted by mattr66 View Post
I started tuning using the Sniper product. And I did start with their files they provided to their dealers. The funny thing is if you compared my files now to the ones I started with a few years ago they look nothing alike. Once my understanding of the underlying systems grew, I started doing things extremely different.
Let me get this straight - you bought a product (hack) that someone wrote to hack into the Ford code to modify it. Then you modify the hacked PCM code your way, and sell it for profit also. Then you are bitching that someone else is hacking your version of code. It is like a thief, stealing from a thief, who stole from a thief, who stole the original item - only difference if each thief is adding a little polish to that item and calling it his own.

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Originally Posted by Powerstroke Racer View Post
You mean parts of the file are extremely different

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattr66 View Post
I get your point..... we are all cheating off of what the engineers did way back when......

An entire cottage industry sprung up from hackers modifying someone else’s copyrighted code. I have powa tunes, so OK, but then the hackers criticize others for trying.

What is wrong with this whole picture.

At least most of the hackers of 80's and 90's would post up open source after their hack was on the street awhile .

Is there no honor among thieves??

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Originally Posted by mattr66 View Post
Well you can also patent an improvement to a patented product can't you?

Yep, so then that gives everyone the equal right to copy and improve on your work also - right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattr66 View Post
Not possible!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerstroke Racer View Post
Now that's the spirit

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.


.
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  #13  
Old 04-20-2009, 05:54 AM
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Re: Open source tuning

I think it would be nice to go open-source but I don't see it happening for our platform.-Atleast not anytime soon. If we started out open-source it would of been fine. But for years all of this has been a huge secret.
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  #14  
Old 04-20-2009, 05:58 AM
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Re: Open source tuning

Ford WAS upset about this happening, but really has no way of stopping it. It's a grey area IMO. If you bought the car, is the programing yours to change?
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  #15  
Old 04-20-2009, 06:14 AM
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Re: Open source tuning

Open source would be great. As for all the code being based off the original pcm code from ford, sure it is.

Heres how I would look at it if I was writing tunes.

I would of course do what I could to make my tunes difficult to copy, no sense in making it easy for someone to copy what I took the time to code. But at the same time I wouldnt see there being a leg to stand on if they suceeded in it.

An open source setup of this stuff would be nice but it isnt going to make a dent in the tuners bottom line.

Out of all the people that would buy tunes I would guess 1% of them would bother fooling with making their own with the open source stuff. Remember youve still got to buy hardware from someone. Sure you can make your own programmer. Ive done it a few times on gassers but its not something the average joe will be able to do or willing to do.

So anyone that would fool with the open source stuff would be buying a tuner from someone anyways. So the tuners will still make the same money they would of made in the first place. Sure they may loose a few reburns to these people that fool with it but again I cant see that being more than 1% of the total people will to buy a tuner in the first place.

The bigest problem for a wannabe tuner is what they have to test their turnes with. The established tuners have a large customer base and some are even running shops building modified trucks, injectors, etc for people. They have more knowledge of the bigger picture thats involved in all this. So if people want to get the absolute most out of their trucks they will still end up buying tunes from the current tuners anyways.

Just my two cents on it
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  #16  
Old 04-20-2009, 11:36 AM
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Re: Open source tuning

I'd agree with that Crowz
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  #17  
Old 04-20-2009, 07:13 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

I will say that I like the idea of being able to share information on tuning in an open enviroments. At the same time I think it is only fair that is OK to share work that you want to share while not hacking in to take the work of those that do this for a living.

Tom
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  #18  
Old 04-21-2009, 03:41 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

I think that is the only way to go...
not everyone needs to tune their own ride .
but if the big chiefs get together and have a pow-wow and come up with even better, stronger, safer,quieter, or what ever tunes .
I am all for that.

things like the new download designs are great.
no more swaping chips for reburns , no shorted out pcm's, no lost or mixed up chips ...everyone wins .

not every needs to write their own tunes but if bill, dave, jody,matt ,tony etc..etcc. all pool some knowledge it would help all of us.
(aint gonna happen but would be sweet)
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  #19  
Old 04-21-2009, 03:49 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

Morning guys. Conway here.

So all this I hear about live tuning...This mean I could "live tune" my own truck?
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  #20  
Old 04-21-2009, 06:42 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by gofastdiesel View Post
Morning guys. Conway here.

So all this I hear about live tuning...This mean I could "live tune" my own truck?
You already can if you buy the software. This is about making the actual files that you modify 'open source' and possibly making the PC software 'open source' (depending on how you intrepret The Wizard's post).


I want to be able to change shift parameters. But I hate stock and don't want to drive in it for a week or two while I wait.
Maybe later I'll want to change engine parameters.

The one problem I do see is having the truck live tuned using the open source software (if a tuner would even agree to do that), then have the tune released on the 'net. Someone who really knows tuning would be able to read a lot of information from just one tune about how a certain tuner approaches problems.
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  #21  
Old 04-21-2009, 07:43 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by cowboy_dan View Post
You already can if you buy the software. This is about making the actual files that you modify 'open source' and possibly making the PC software 'open source' (depending on how you intrepret The Wizard's post).

I want to be able to change shift parameters. But I hate stock and don't want to drive in it for a week or two while I wait.
Maybe later I'll want to change engine parameters.

The one problem I do see is having the truck live tuned using the open source software (if a tuner would even agree to do that), then have the tune released on the 'net. Someone who really knows tuning would be able to read a lot of information from just one tune about how a certain tuner approaches problems.
Let me explain what I mean by open source, currently you can buy PHP or Sniper tuning software for a price and you can tune to your hearts desire.
Not open souce rather private source.

Open source definitions are templates that a person or persons will make and distribute free of charge, once you have a template or definition file for your application you basically suck out the factory file and make your changes and re down load it or burn it to a chip of your choice.
Sometimes people will post or email files that work for others to either use and or modify to there personal preference.
With multiple people working on a similar file more advancements can be made in a shorter time with knowledge being shared freely.

Kind like sharing music online.

That said I don't have a clue how to make the definitions which is why I use PHP and Sniper.
Reason for the post, There was a person that seemed genuinely interested in making and giving away the definitions and was quickly shot down.

My opinion is that if you criticize what you don't understand that the smart people capable of doing such things will go away and YOU the 7.3 PSD community lose in the long run.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:10 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

The Dmax guys have been doing this for a while. They all share files on their forums. Everything is to be taken for what it is, just a free file someone else made. It might be the greatest advancement in history, or it could result in fire and destruction for the truck. I think youre right though, it would further the powerstroke performance as a whole. The professional tuners will still have their tricks and tips and what not to use that they wont openly give out, and it should be that way.

In a way, while it seems like the guys making the software will be the ones making the real bucks, i almost wouldnt mind. Its tough to tune a truck when a customer comes in and says "i want less timing and i want XXXX icp". Well what is less and xxxx numerically? the point is, will the true enthusiast that know a bit, but not as much as they think they do, ever be happy with a tune? Or will it be a losing battle? Just a few things to ponder.

I have no idea how to build templates or def files either, so as far as that goes id be all ears. I just know how to use the ones provided to me by sct, php, and sniper.
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  #23  
Old 04-21-2009, 09:28 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

I'd like to get into tuning, but I wouldn't do it until something like this came out. I'd like to be able to look at two tables side-by-side and see what changes were made and how they performed...

I think that would help those who wanted to tweak on their own tunes and make it more worthwhile...
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:46 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by theSLEEPER View Post
I'd like to get into tuning, but I wouldn't do it until something like this came out. I'd like to be able to look at two tables side-by-side and see what changes were made and how they performed...

I think that would help those who wanted to tweak on their own tunes and make it more worthwhile...
Best way to learn.
about the only thing I have seen/heard that could easily cause a drastic problem is tuning with the EOT table, leave that alone and it's actually pretty easy


BTW either of the current software offerings will allow you to compare files.
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Old 04-21-2009, 11:01 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by Powerstroke Racer View Post
My opinion is that if you criticize what you don't understand that the smart people capable of doing such things will go away and YOU the 7.3 PSD community lose in the long run.
Not to get into yet another giant pissing match......

So you're saying that since I didn't come on here and post exactly a year ago that I was ABLE to do the same thing the other guy did that I am not smart? I know I'm not the first person to do it either. There are many other folks with the knowhow and means to do exactly what this guy did.....only they didn't make it blatantly clear that they took Jody Tipton's files, modified them, and offered to give a home made definition file to people so they could modify JODY'S tunes and use his hardware.

That's not the brightest thing in the world. Would I be ok with it if he mentioned that he came across some miscellaneous tunes somewhere and rehashed those? Maybe not. Maybe so. But MY personal beef with his posts and actions revolve around the usage and modification of a site sponsor's tunes (and I'm sure that the Tiptons frown upon third party usage of their proprietary hardware and tuning methods) and publicly announcing that he's willing to share his "breakthrough". Read his previous posts up until that point....does he sound like he should be sharing the "Colonel's Recipe"?

We all start somewhere though.

I have no beef with you at all David. I don't know all of the facts. I am not an attorney, nor should I care at all about this subject. I'm out, man.
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Old 04-21-2009, 11:41 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Not to get into yet another giant pissing match......

So you're saying that since I didn't come on here and post exactly a year ago that I was ABLE to do the same thing the other guy did that I am not smart? I know I'm not the first person to do it either. There are many other folks with the knowhow and means to do exactly what this guy did.....only they didn't make it blatantly clear that they took Jody Tipton's files, modified them, and offered to give a home made definition file to people so they could modify JODY'S tunes and use his hardware.

That's not the brightest thing in the world. Would I be ok with it if he mentioned that he came across some miscellaneous tunes somewhere and rehashed those? Maybe not. Maybe so. But MY personal beef with his posts and actions revolve around the usage and modification of a site sponsor's tunes (and I'm sure that the Tiptons frown upon third party usage of their proprietary hardware and tuning methods) and publicly announcing that he's willing to share his "breakthrough". Read his previous posts up until that point....does he sound like he should be sharing the "Colonel's Recipe"?

We all start somewhere though.

I have no beef with you at all David. I don't know all of the facts. I am not an attorney, nor should I care at all about this subject. I'm out, man.
I meant smart as in being able to know how to make the definitions.
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Old 04-22-2009, 01:29 AM
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Re: Open source tuning

Sigh. It's too bad Powerstrokes couldn't be made to run better on pissing matches and secret squirrel excriments.
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Old 04-22-2009, 02:01 AM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Sigh. It's too bad Powerstrokes couldn't be made to run better on pissing matches and secret squirrel excriments.
Meaning???
as relevant to this thread.
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Old 04-22-2009, 02:55 AM
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Re: Open source tuning

i think it would be nice to go my own tunes that way i could change things all the time or when i want to i am not stupid by any means and am sure i could figure it out but don't know if i would be able to do the same thing that tuners that have been doing it for awhile and understand everything and know how to tweak what and where they need to and i sure wouldn't want to blow my truck up from not having it right or do something and tranny won't shift i just don't know if tom dick and harry tuning there own stuff is a good idea but your right there is only one way to learn that is to do it
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Old 04-22-2009, 03:38 AM
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Re: Open source tuning

David, what I meant is that the Powerstroke community as whole is nearly doomed with this kind of crap. While I missed the original thread that is being referenced in this one, I get the jest from your description and the one post with the qoutes.

For starters, everything you guys are talking about wanting to do is available through Sniper and now Power Hungry for cheap. There is nothing stopping anyone who has the Sniper software from trading their own tuning files with each other. Period. Furthermore, anyone who has bought the Sniper software can get the modified files to start with for free. So there you go, for $700 (less if you know where to look) you can tune your own truck and swap tuning files with your pals. Pay for the templates because someone spent much time creating them. These "smart" people as you call them should be paid for their work so they can be working on the next system. I have a hard time believing anyone giving it away for free actually created it from scratch themselves and doesn't need to recoop something for their time spent on the project.

EFI Live for the Duramaxes is the same deal. You need to buy the software ($500+) and off you go. Nothing is free as far as I know.

While I have spent more time that I ever expected plunking away at the computer screen trying to get vehicles to do what I wanted to with the tuning, I still don't see what anyone thinks there is to gain by it being completely free. I'm sorry, there is a lot of work involved to be a competent tuner. And in the end if you do really good, you might eek out a few more horsepower than Bill, Matt, SCT, TS, Jody, or whomever. So what? It's really not worth it in the end for the average owner. In a competition setting where you can make some changes on the fly, maybe.

For everyone else, it's like going to school to be a brain surgen and after all that education you cut hair for a profession.
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Old 04-22-2009, 03:58 AM
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Re: Open source tuning

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David, what I meant is that the Powerstroke community as whole is nearly doomed with this kind of crap. While I missed the original thread that is being referenced in this one, I get the jest from your description and the one post with the qoutes.

For starters, everything you guys are talking about wanting to do is available through Sniper and now Power Hungry for cheap. There is nothing stopping anyone who has the Sniper software from trading their own tuning files with each other. Period. Furthermore, anyone who has bought the Sniper software can get the modified files to start with for free. So there you go, for $700 (less if you know where to look) you can tune your own truck and swap tuning files with your pals. Pay for the templates because someone spent much time creating them. These "smart" people as you call them should be paid for their work so they can be working on the next system. I have a hard time believing anyone giving it away for free actually created it from scratch themselves and doesn't need to recoop something for their time spent on the project.

EFI Live for the Duramaxes is the same deal. You need to buy the software ($500+) and off you go. Nothing is free as far as I know.

While I have spent more time that I ever expected plunking away at the computer screen trying to get vehicles to do what I wanted to with the tuning, I still don't see what anyone thinks there is to gain by it being completely free. I'm sorry, there is a lot of work involved to be a competent tuner. And in the end if you do really good, you might eek out a few more horsepower than Bill, Matt, SCT, TS, Jody, or whomever. So what? It's really not worth it in the end for the average owner. In a competition setting where you can make some changes on the fly, maybe.

For everyone else, it's like going to school to be a brain surgen and after all that education you cut hair for a profession.
Johnboy
While I see where you are coming from I don't agree, can you tell me with one word what makes a good tuner?
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  #32  
Old 04-22-2009, 05:28 AM
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Re: Open source tuning

Patience??
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  #33  
Old 04-22-2009, 12:00 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Johnboy
While I see where you are coming from I don't agree, can you tell me with one word what makes a good tuner?
Spare me the one word zen questions.

I guess what I don't understand is what is there to gain by this open source style? Seriously. It seems we have the capabilities to do everything everyone wants already.
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  #34  
Old 04-22-2009, 12:29 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

I think there is some merit to open source tuning, but the reason I am looking at software is because the modifications I make are pretty damn unique to my truck. No one out there has the same combo as me and as time progresses it will become even more unique. The open source tuning would be a good base for me to see how some people get around certain problems, but it would only be for my education. The actual PW and ICP and timing and whatever would be unique for my setup.

But then again I don't fall into that 99% category.
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Old 04-22-2009, 02:10 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by Johnboy3 View Post
Spare me the one word zen questions.

I guess what I don't understand is what is there to gain by this open source style? Seriously. It seems we have the capabilities to do everything everyone wants already.
You proved my point, people fear what they don't understand.
and the answer to my question is a pretty simple one if you truly understand what makes a good tuner.

BTW the answer is in your about us page.
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Originally Posted by HotRodTractor View Post
I think there is some merit to open source tuning, but the reason I am looking at software is because the modifications I make are pretty damn unique to my truck. No one out there has the same combo as me and as time progresses it will become even more unique. The open source tuning would be a good base for me to see how some people get around certain problems, but it would only be for my education. The actual PW and ICP and timing and whatever would be unique for my setup.

But then again I don't fall into that 99% category.
Precisely.
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  #36  
Old 04-22-2009, 02:38 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

John
Actually you need to read your entire about us page then tell me why you would criticize anyone else for wanting to do their own tuning and do it cheap.
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Old 04-22-2009, 02:56 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

I guess what I'm trying to ask, because perhaps I do not understand, is what would be different between the open source tuning and closed source tuning other than price??? And by price, it is not too much more expensive than buying a single commercial chip to set yourself up to tune your own vehicle. So, I'm sorry if I came across sarcastic but, what exactly is the advantage of open source tuning? I may not be grasping the idea fully.
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  #38  
Old 04-22-2009, 03:04 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Spare me the one word zen questions.

I guess what I don't understand is what is there to gain by this open source style? Seriously. It seems we have the capabilities to do everything everyone wants already.
Open source would not only benefit the minion hobbyists but the pro tuners too.

Let me relate. I am a Gov't systems integration engineer/project engineer. As the Gov't, I see all of the contractors Proprietary concepts and designs. They all have good aspects and some weaknesses. Seeing how I am looking for the best overall product, I can see that if I took this piece from Cont A, and this piece from Cont B and another piece from Cont C, I would have near an optimum system to meet the Gov'ts need. But, A, B, & C can't play together so I end up with sub-optimal systems from all three.

Open source would give everyone insights that they never have had before. Each tuner does it his own way, but by looking at someone else's work, they might get a glimmer - a wow - and implement one small tiny tweak into their's and improve quite a bit. Open sourcing would probably benefit the Professional Tuners more than the hobbyist. It probably wouldn't hurt their sales, and might even improve sales. For the hobbyist, it gives them a chance to tweak Known-Good-Tunes to the variances of the options on their truck.

All around, open source benefits everyone.
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  #39  
Old 04-22-2009, 03:14 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by 389SixPack View Post
Open source would not only benefit the minion hobbyists but the pro tuners too.

Let me relate. I am a Gov't systems integration engineer/project engineer. As the Gov't, I see all of the contractors Proprietary concepts and designs. They all have good aspects and some weaknesses. Seeing how I am looking for the best overall product, I can see that if I took this piece from Cont A, and this piece from Cont B and another piece from Cont C, I would have near an optimum system to meet the Gov'ts need. But, A, B, & C can't play together so I end up with sub-optimal systems from all three.

Open source would give everyone insights that they never have had before. Each tuner does it his own way, but by looking at someone else's work, they might get a glimmer - a wow - and implement one small tiny tweak into their's and improve quite a bit. Open sourcing would probably benefit the Professional Tuners more than the hobbyist. It probably wouldn't hurt their sales, and might even improve sales. For the hobbyist, it gives them a chance to tweak Known-Good-Tunes to the variances of the options on their truck.

All around, open source benefits everyone.
Very well put.

I would love to do open source tuning. Just like we do with programing in the IT field.
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  #40  
Old 04-22-2009, 03:55 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

Perfect explanation
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  #41  
Old 04-22-2009, 04:01 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

David or one of you guys how much of the PCM code are any of you even able to see/adjust vs what is there in total? I was under the impression that there is a lot of uncharted territory in there.

Tom
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  #42  
Old 04-22-2009, 04:56 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

I have a question for you all. How would you know if the source of the information that you have is correct? This has been a huge problem through the industry as one person calls something by one name while another calls it something else. There are no names within the code so they have to be made up to mean something to the person making up the names. I've been doing this longer than most and I can tell you that over the years I've seen plenty of people who have bought software and then called themselves a tuner. A year later they are gone. Back when I started most of the people today didn't event know what a diesel was, let alone how to tune one. We have disassemble the code for most all the 7.3L stuff and I can tell you we only understand about 1/3 of what goes on in any one code version and there are hundreds if not thousands of code versions. We only figure out what we need and then move on as that is all there is time for. Would it be nice to know more? Sure but there just is not the time to do it all. Something about needing to make a living comes into it at some point.

If your going to try this for yourself that's great but just remember what comes along with it.
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Old 04-22-2009, 05:18 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

Time to waterboard some of the original engineers on the project?
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  #44  
Old 04-22-2009, 05:35 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

Dont you know Charles is reading this thread and saying "must....not....post. must....not....post."

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Old 04-22-2009, 05:37 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by PTSUPERD View Post
Dont you know Charles is reading this thread and saying "must....not....post. must....not....post."

STAY on Topic damn it !!!!!!!!!
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  #46  
Old 04-22-2009, 05:38 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

lol. My bad.

Steve Cole has spoken.
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  #47  
Old 04-22-2009, 06:10 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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We have disassemble the code for most all the 7.3L stuff and I can tell you we only understand about 1/3 of what goes on
Most people don't understand 1/3 of what goes on in a turbo pedistal.
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  #48  
Old 04-22-2009, 06:17 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by Powerstroke Racer View Post
Let me explain what I mean by open source, currently you can buy PHP or Sniper tuning software for a price and you can tune to your hearts desire.
Not open souce rather private source.

Open source definitions are templates that a person or persons will make and distribute free of charge, once you have a template or definition file for your application you basically suck out the factory file and make your changes and re down load it or burn it to a chip of your choice.
Sometimes people will post or email files that work for others to either use and or modify to there personal preference.
With multiple people working on a similar file more advancements can be made in a shorter time with knowledge being shared freely.

Kind like sharing music online.

That said I don't have a clue how to make the definitions which is why I use PHP and Sniper.
Reason for the post, There was a person that seemed genuinely interested in making and giving away the definitions and was quickly shot down.

My opinion is that if you criticize what you don't understand that the smart people capable of doing such things will go away and YOU the 7.3 PSD community lose in the long run.
Ahh, now the light begins to come one.
Yes, I think that would be an excellent benefit to the Powerstroke. EFILive is about $500-$600 depending on vendor, and that would be a good price point for the Powerstroke, especially if it would do data collection from the PCM also.
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  #49  
Old 04-22-2009, 06:24 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

What Diesel Tech posted is exactly what I mean. Unless someone is completely ripping off the work it takes to build a template to be able to modify any file. No one who spends that kind of time is going to give it away for free.

Quote:
Yes, I think that would be an excellent benefit to the Powerstroke. EFILive is about $500-$600 depending on vendor, and that would be a good price point for the Powerstroke, especially if it would do data collection from the PCM also.
Exactly my point. You can buy from either a PHP or Sniper product that will do this exact thing today. David himself knows he could sell anyone in this thread the capability with a Sniper Commando package for roughly $500 for the hobbiest to do thier own tuning. Anyone with either of these two platforms could share any or all of the files they create back and forth. Today. I just don't understand what all the hub bub is.

Every thing you guys are talking about doing is available today with out anyone having to release anything. Also at a fair price with some customer support.
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  #50  
Old 04-22-2009, 06:36 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

Hi guys, i know for a fact that the complete tuning process is real hard, a friend of mine has his own company in germany and works on vw, porsche and audi, to get a good and safe tune it takes lots of money to work out the best tune and on some level you have to work with the big gunes like vw,porsche and audi.
They have to run test on real cars and get back to rewrite the whole thing sometimes.
I think it is just fair to pay somebody good money for the work he has done and we all take things from somewhere they dont belong to us, do we not?
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  #51  
Old 04-22-2009, 06:46 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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What Diesel Tech posted is exactly what I mean. Unless someone is completely ripping off the work it takes to build a template to be able to modify any file. No one who spends that kind of time is going to give it away for free.


Exactly my point. You can buy from either PHP or Sniper a product that will do this exact thing today. David himself knows he could sell anyone in this thread the capability with a Sniper Commando package for roughly $500 for the hobbiest to do thier own tuning. Anyone with either of these two platforms could share any or all of the files they create back and forth. Today. I just don't understand what all the hub bub is.

Every thing you guys are talking about doing is available today with out anyone having to release anything. Also at a fair price with some customer support.
Look into this site, then tell me why people will go through the trouble to hack just about any software you want and they do it for free.

http://isohunt.com/

You have to realize that there are people out there capable that actually want to be helpful without being compensated for their work.
There are plenty of DIY's on this site alone that would play around with their trucks if a free software was available.

For grins google open source tuning, heres is an example.
http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/beg...ng-t6977.html?
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  #52  
Old 04-22-2009, 07:22 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

I love the way you are thinking David
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  #53  
Old 04-22-2009, 07:27 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

isohunt.com is a great site for downloading any thing its also a good form.
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  #54  
Old 04-22-2009, 07:35 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by PTSUPERD View Post
lol. My bad.

Steve Cole has spoken.
Steve Cole AHHHHH HAAAA !
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  #55  
Old 04-22-2009, 07:43 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

Sorry, nothing is free about this. You still need some hardware to connnect to whatever device you use to change the ecm. Whether it is a direct flash or using a chip. For roughly the same money, you can buy every thing all ready to go.

David, can you or can you not sell anyone who wants it, the capabilities to write their own tunes for the same price you sell you six position chip for? The rest of us can. Anyone who would actually need to do some DIY tuning has at the very least already put a chip in their truck. Paying the same price for the tuning software and the hardware to put the tune in the truck doesn't seem like a bad deal at all.
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Old 04-22-2009, 07:51 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by Johnboy3 View Post
Sorry, nothing is free about this. You still need some hardware to connnect to whatever device you use to change the ecm. Whether it is a direct flash or using a chip. For roughly the same money, you can buy every thing all ready to go.

David, can you or can you not sell anyone who wants it, the capabilities to write their own tunes for the same price you sell you six position chip for? The rest of us can. Anyone who would actually need to do some DIY tuning has at the very least already put a chip in their truck. Paying the same price for the tuning software and the hardware to put the tune in the truck doesn't seem like a bad deal at all.
I'm pretty sure you don't watch discovery channel or anything like that.. do you? And I'm fairly certain that you've never taken anything apart just to see how it works.
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  #57  
Old 04-22-2009, 07:56 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

You got me there Dirk. The more I think about all this, I just don't care. Not sure why I posted at all.

Carry on boys.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:04 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Sorry, nothing is free about this. You still need some hardware to connnect to whatever device you use to change the ecm. Whether it is a direct flash or using a chip. For roughly the same money, you can buy every thing all ready to go.

David, can you or can you not sell anyone who wants it, the capabilities to write their own tunes for the same price you sell you six position chip for? The rest of us can. Anyone who would actually need to do some DIY tuning has at the very least already put a chip in their truck. Paying the same price for the tuning software and the hardware to put the tune in the truck doesn't seem like a bad deal at all.
It's not about the money
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:13 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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I'm pretty sure you don't watch discovery channel or anything like that.. do you? And I'm fairly certain that you've never taken anything apart just to see how it works.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:15 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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You got me there Dirk. The more I think about all this, I just don't care. Not sure why I posted at all.

Carry on boys.
then vote no and move the hell on.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:19 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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I wasn't trying to be funny or mean. I just don't understand. I'm the type of person who wants to know HOW things work and HOW to make whatever better. I have a garage and 2 storage building full of tools to prove that.

At the moment, I'm buying transmission tools to rebuild a 4r100. I have the ford service and rebuild books and read them over a few times. Nothing appears to be magical about them, I think I'll give it a go! And once I'm done with that, I'll focus more on tuning.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:23 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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I wasn't trying to be funny or mean. I just don't understand. I'm the type of person who wants to know HOW things work and HOW to make whatever better. I have a garage and 2 storage building full of tools to prove that.

At the moment, I'm buying transmission tools to rebuild a 4r100. I have the ford service and rebuild books and read them over a few times. Nothing appears to be magical about them, I think I'll give it a go! And once I'm done with that, I'll focus more on tuning.
No way you can do that!!
it has to be done by a professional that charges a lot of money.

F'in do it yourselfers what has this world come too
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:26 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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No way you can do that!!
it has to be done by a professional that charges a lot of money.

F'in do it yourselfers what has this world come too

Got that DI "DIY 4r100 kit" ready yet?
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:38 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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I have a question for you all. How would you know if the source of the information that you have is correct? This has been a huge problem through the industry as one person calls something by one name while another calls it something else. There are no names within the code so they have to be made up to mean something to the person making up the names. I've been doing this longer than most and I can tell you that over the years I've seen plenty of people who have bought software and then called themselves a tuner. A year later they are gone. Back when I started most of the people today didn't event know what a diesel was, let alone how to tune one. We have disassemble the code for most all the 7.3L stuff and I can tell you we only understand about 1/3 of what goes on in any one code version and there are hundreds if not thousands of code versions. We only figure out what we need and then move on as that is all there is time for. Would it be nice to know more? Sure but there just is not the time to do it all. Something about needing to make a living comes into it at some point.

If your going to try this for yourself that's great but just remember what comes along with it.
I think the point David is trying to make is that currently on a small handful of people are actually messing around with tuning, and that with open source it would be possible to involve more people. If more people are involved, more ideas are shared, more of the PCM mysteries are solved, and we learn how to better tune the PSD's faster than ever before.

So yes it sounds like a daunting task, but it's going to remain a big task if only a small number of people attempt to tackle it. Get more minds going on this, and you have a greater pool of resources to get more accomplished.

Open source software is currently one of the fastest growing sectors in software development. It's spreading everywhere, and it's only a matter of time before it hits the Powerstroke world too. Vendors who embrace the idea early might be on to something, and ahead of the curve. Right now the first steps have been taken through Sniper, PHP, DP-Tuner, and a few others. Just look at the hardware they provide, it screams sharing and interconnectivity. They are laying the groundwork for future generations of software and tuning for these trucks.
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  #65  
Old 04-22-2009, 08:45 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by Pocket View Post
I think the point David is trying to make is that currently on a small handful of people are actually messing around with tuning, and that with open source it would be possible to involve more people. If more people are involved, more ideas are shared, more of the PCM mysteries are solved, and we learn how to better tune the PSD's faster than ever before.

So yes it sounds like a daunting task, but it's going to remain a big task if only a small number of people attempt to tackle it. Get more minds going on this, and you have a greater pool of resources to get more accomplished.

Open source software is currently one of the fastest growing sectors in software development. It's spreading everywhere, and it's only a matter of time before it hits the Powerstroke world too. Vendors who embrace the idea early might be on to something, and ahead of the curve. Right now the first steps have been taken through Sniper, PHP, DP-Tuner, and a few others. Just look at the hardware they provide, it screams sharing and interconnectivity. They are laying the groundwork for future generations of software and tuning for these trucks.
Thanks Curtis, that was a very eloquent way of saying what I was thinking.
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:08 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by 444-4D View Post
Most people don't understand 1/3 of what goes on in a turbo pedistal.
Cha Ching
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  #67  
Old 04-23-2009, 02:03 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by Pocket View Post
I think the point David is trying to make is that currently on a small handful of people are actually messing around with tuning, and that with open source it would be possible to involve more people. If more people are involved, more ideas are shared, more of the PCM mysteries are solved, and we learn how to better tune the PSD's faster than ever before.

So yes it sounds like a daunting task, but it's going to remain a big task if only a small number of people attempt to tackle it. Get more minds going on this, and you have a greater pool of resources to get more accomplished.

Open source software is currently one of the fastest growing sectors in software development. It's spreading everywhere, and it's only a matter of time before it hits the Powerstroke world too. Vendors who embrace the idea early might be on to something, and ahead of the curve. Right now the first steps have been taken through Sniper, PHP, DP-Tuner, and a few others. Just look at the hardware they provide, it screams sharing and interconnectivity. They are laying the groundwork for future generations of software and tuning for these trucks.
I was making a list of the current software/hardware offerings that allowed the end user to modify their tunes, I know the previously mentioned Sniper and PHP, is DP Tuner offering a similar set up and when you say others to whom are you referring too?
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Old 04-23-2009, 02:37 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by 444-4D View Post
Most people don't understand 1/3 of what goes on in a turbo pedistal.
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Originally Posted by Tom S View Post
Cha Ching
The sounds of 1/3 of the money in your pocket leaving....
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  #69  
Old 04-23-2009, 02:53 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

How is DP tuner in there at all?? They don't share a DAMN THING. I would never even contemplate ASKING them for any hints, tips, or tricks if I was tyooning.

The first people I would go to, and the people that I KNOW will be quick to share their knowledge is David Lott, Matt Robinson, Bill Cohren, and Blowby... If I'm forgetting any, I'm sorry. I've never heard much on tuning from aggie, but I know he's a good guy.
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Old 04-23-2009, 03:35 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by Powerstroke Racer View Post
I was making a list of the current software/hardware offerings that allowed the end user to modify their tunes, I know the previously mentioned Sniper and PHP, is DP Tuner offering a similar set up and when you say others to whom are you referring too?
What I meant by that is for everyone to take a look at either the hardware or the software (or a combination of both). In regards to DP-Tuner, it's their hardware with the F-6 chip that would make it extremely easy to connect, share, etc if they so choose to go that route. After all, their F-6 chip has a secondary connection that allows you to plug your computer directly to the chip without ever having to uninstall it from the PCM. IMO that's a good hardware model to follow for anyone looking at open source tuning. That's the reason why I threw DP-Tuner into the mix simply for that purpose. All you need for that is a chip and the software, and you don't need a secondary chip burner.

Successful open source tuning would have to be a combination of the right software and hardware. If it's easy enough for the average "shadetree mechanic" to use and understand, then it would catch on much quicker.

As for other examples, most are in the gasser world and have been offering things like what we are discussing in this thread for quite some time now. In the 7.3L world, we are actually behind the curve. However, the idea of emailing new tunes for the Powerstroke has been around for many years now. Diablosport has offered downloads for their Predator program to 7.3L owners. Although it's very limited, the basic concept has been there for a while. They do offer CRM custom tuning for gas engines, and those tunes can be emailed to the end user. They don't seem to offer CRM for the Powerstrokes though.

To be honest, I think that information sharing is going to be the wave of the future for Powerstroke tuning. It's just going to take some time to catch on. Vendors have a clear opportunity to jump ahead of the curve, and some are beginning to take those steps. I say "beginning" because I feel that we are still just in the infancy stage of all this, and it hasn't been universally accepted. Powerstroke tuning is still a mystery, and there is quite a few things that even the best tuners haven't quite figured out yet. Everyone has something more to learn.

Just think about this for a second.... why are there so many posts where there is a combination of tuner defending/bashing that goes on in the forums (not just this, but all other forums too, and this goes beyond just Powerstrokes... it's evident in all vehicle brands and engine types). The reason this goes on is because no one has got it just right. The thing is, no one will ever get it just right. Every person drives and uses their truck differently. Programs and tunes available from even the best vendors still don't always match just right with the end user. One person might prefer Swamps tunes, another might prefer PHP, and yet another might prefer DI. It doesn't mean that one tuner is better than the other, it just means they all have a different approach and a different end result. If that end user is able to tweak or adjust something to make the program right in their eyes, then in the end you have a more satisfied customer. However, for a long time those tweaks and adjustments have remained in the hands of a select few. Sure there have been offerings from Sniper, and more recently PHP has stepped it up too. This is a growing opportunity for all tuners and vendors. At least that's how I see it.

And I don't see open source tuning or information sharing as detrimental to the existing vendors. If anything, they can use it to enhance sales and customer satisfaction, which would increase revenues for all of them.

Quote:
How is DP tuner in there at all?? They don't share a DAMN THING. I would never even contemplate ASKING them for any hints, tips, or tricks if I was tyooning.
This thread is already a kind of touchy subject for some, so let's please try if at all possible not to start in any direction that would lead to vendor bashing, which would then result in this thread being locked up or deleted. I've just explained why I had them on the list, so let's please discuss the topic at hand. Thanks.
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  #71  
Old 04-23-2009, 03:43 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

You're right. I shouldn't have been quite so critical...

I just wish that they were a little more open with the way they do stuff...

Like, I'd love to have a multi position chip that I didn't have to remove from the truck to load...
Think about how great that would be for the tuning world. But they hold that technology as their own and will not share it. Even though they could sell JUST that technology and make more money... It's one of their "gimmicks" for lack of a better word. To sell chips.
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  #72  
Old 04-23-2009, 03:45 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by theSLEEPER View Post
You're right. I shouldn't have been quite so critical...

I just wish that they were a little more open with the way they do stuff...

Like, I'd love to have a multi position chip that I didn't have to remove from the truck to load...
Think about how great that would be for the tuning world. But they hold that technology as their own and will not share it. Even though they could sell JUST that technology and make more money... It's one of their "gimmicks" for lack of a better word. To sell chips.
When i had the DP tuner i liked the chip and the technology... just i like my tunes from Matt better. If they would sell that technology then anyone could write a tune for it... and i could run DI, PHP, and matts tunes on the same chip. and then also i would love to be able to write my own and see how they compare. With out ever having to change hardware or pull the chip.
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  #73  
Old 04-23-2009, 03:47 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

Also... Consider this... I'm sure you have... multiple times...

You and 10 other people have a DI, PHP, DP, and GAP "economy" file on one 6 pos. And you all do testing on characteristics and actual gains on EACH file... and you have them to switch between and feel the difference in each.

Then, you all share your findings and help to come to the best "common ground" for all four chips' "econo" setting...


Wouldn't that be REALLY helpful??
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Old 04-23-2009, 03:49 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

Now you guys are thinking!!!
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Old 04-23-2009, 03:51 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Now you guys are WISHING!!!
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  #76  
Old 04-23-2009, 07:23 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

I don't understand why this is not already available. Most cars I have seen in the last few years already have this, even newer ones. It is not however usually free. You have to start with a modified chip $$$ from a tuning company that will allow you to access the parameters in a small GUI which itself is an "open source" product. The auto manufacturers I have seen have the ECU pretty well locked down.

I have built, installed, tuned, and run, the widely known Megasquirt for the last several years. It wasn't free, but everything is open source. People still buy other piggyback ECUs, pre-built Megasquirts with tuning, or have a knowledgeable tuner do it for them, or the easiest route stick a chip or recode it. Most people just want to go fast and don't car exactly how things work. I do.

I am for it but most people are going to save time and work and skip it. Just think of all the extra parts vendors will be able to sell from people blowing stuff up.
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  #77  
Old 04-23-2009, 07:53 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

I will wade in one more time, because the last few posts are touching on exactly what I was trying to convey. (perhaps poorly) For starters I in no way shape or form give a damn about who makes any money from anything. I am not out to sell anything, period. After some thought, my point is simply this:

Right now today, and for at least a year or more, anyone on this thread for roughly the same price of six position chip can buy the software and hardware to tune their own trucks AND email the tunes to each other if they so desire. The technology is here and absolutely ready to use. I am more familiar more familiar with Sniper products because that is what I have been using, but from what I understand PHP is basically the same thing except much more user friendly. I am not trying to sell Sniper products, like I said, I couldn't care less who buys what, but with the Sniper software already available you can:

Pull the stock file out of your truck's pcm

Use a program that has drop down menus to adjust the basic parameters

Burn that file to a chip or directly flash it to your pcm

If you want to refine the program more than the basic editor does, you can adjust it very much the same way any established tuner does endlessly

With the tunes/files you create yourself, you can email them to anyone you want that has the software to use them.



So my point was, there are already several platforms available to do what everyone wants to do here without "ripping" off anyone's templates or having hurt feelings. I am still at a loss why David jumped down my throat. Starting from scratch with "free" templates and software that isn't proven is going to be a rough road at best. Not to mention the endless amount of different templates for the 7.3 alone. Wouldn't it make more sense to use the platforms all ready in place?

I think sharing the tunes is a fantastic idea. Being able to compare another person's work is definately a very good learning tool. I orginally had thought this forum in particular was going to be geared much more towards this sort of exchange when it was first started.
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  #78  
Old 04-23-2009, 09:02 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by Johnboy3 View Post
I will wade in one more time, because the last few posts are touching on exactly what I was trying to convey. (perhaps poorly) For starters I in no way shape or form give a damn about who makes any money from anything. I am not out to sell anything, period. After some thought, my point is simply this:

Right now today, and for at least a year or more, anyone on this thread for roughly the same price of six position chip can buy the software and hardware to tune their own trucks AND email the tunes to each other if they so desire. The technology is here and absolutely ready to use. I am more familiar more familiar with Sniper products because that is what I have been using, but from what I understand PHP is basically the same thing except much more user friendly. I am not trying to sell Sniper products, like I said, I couldn't care less who buys what, but with the Sniper software already available you can:

Pull the stock file out of your truck's pcm

Use a program that has drop down menus to adjust the basic parameters

Burn that file to a chip or directly flash it to your pcm

If you want to refine the program more than the basic editor does, you can adjust it very much the same way any established tuner does endlessly

With the tunes/files you create yourself, you can email them to anyone you want that has the software to use them.

Sniper tunes will only open with Sniper software.

So my point was, there are already several platforms available to do what everyone wants to do here without "ripping" off anyone's templates or having hurt feelings. Open source is not ripping off anybodies template or hard work I am still at a loss why David jumped down my throat. your not listening, there are other shops yet you went and built your own!!! why would you do that??? Starting from scratch with "free" templates and software that isn't proven is going to be a rough road at best. You and I were not proven at one point, we both learned from trial and error leading to experiance which is what makes us good Not to mention the endless amount of different templates for the 7.3 alone. Wouldn't it make more sense to use the platforms all ready in place? yes it would but then thats all we would have., can you imagine if only Ford made vehicles, where we would be right now?
I think sharing the tunes is a fantastic idea. Being able to compare another person's work is definately a very good learning tool. I orginally had thought this forum in particular was going to be geared much more towards this sort of exchange when it was first started.
Crucifying people for wanting to share their ideas is not exactly the best way to make this forum grow
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Old 04-23-2009, 09:28 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Sniper tunes will only open with Sniper software.
PHP and Sniper tunes aren't interchangable with some file renaming? I was under the assumption that you could swap between the two programs. No?

Quote:
your not listening, there are other shops yet you went and built your own!!! why would you do that???
Because it's too cold up here to work outside.

Quote:
You and I were not proven at one point, we both learned from trial and error leading to experiance which is what makes us good
True. But my point is that I didn't start with a block of steel, a chisel, and a dream of having a diesel engine. (close) There was an engine with an electronics system in place when I bought my first Powerstroke over a decade ago. So we work with what we have and make the most of it. For the longest time SCT had the only software for the common person to do anything with. It was priced fairly high. Under the assumption that Sniper and PHP files can play nice with each other, tuning has never been easier or within the grasp of the average joe than it is now. I have thought many times over how much I would have liked to have this software ten years ago. My life would have been much easier.

Quote:
yes it would but then thats all we would have., can you imagine if only Ford made vehicles, where we would be right now?
All of us would probably be in the same place. In fact, we might be conversing on a website with the exact same name.


Quote:
Crucifying people for wanting to share their ideas is not exactly the best way to make this forum grow
I wasn't crucifying anyone. I am under the assumption, from the information I have (I didn't read any other threads), that someone released or was going to release something that belong to DP at one point. I have asked several times for clarification, but really didn't get any, just sarcasm. I wished I had more time to read every one of the 700 diesel message boards, but I just don't.
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Old 04-23-2009, 09:44 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

I'm not exactly sure what you two are going at... So I'll tell you what I envision as the perfect sharing-learning-self tuning platform.

Capability to receive and read any tune that is usable in a PowerStroke's PCM.

Capability to then adjust that tune in anyway you want.

Capabilty to install any tune into your chip without removing the chip from your truck. Understandably you would have a limited number of positions...

And of course the ability to share tunes... on a forum would be nice, but over e-mail would be acceptable.

Let's travel to the land of make-believe...

I have a 6 pos. chip with some tunes of my own.

Me: David... I'd like to see your "Snow White" and "Elmo" tunes.

David: Ok. Let me find it *sends "Snow White" and "elmo" tunes.*

I plug my laptop in and load those two tunes into my chip while still in the truck and drive it for a week to get a feel for the tunes.

After I get a feel for everything... I notice I really like the way the "elmo" tune fuels up top, but the shift pattern doesn't fit me for daily driving and there is more timing than I like down low.

I like the way the "snow white" tune feels down low, but it's a little much up top on fuel and timing.

The way my tunes shift are great IMO and I don't want to change much about them...

Then I get on my laptop and lay all of these tunes out, and make them all work together by taking hints about where PW, "timing", ICP and other options are.

I imagine the real art of it all is getting them to flow smoothly but in the end getting the result you were looking for.

I show David what I came up with and he looks it over and says "Cool, looks like a good strong DD tune." and tries it out for a week but decides there's a few things he could do... A few "tricks". And sends it back...

And we keep going until we both have nice tunes for our trucks... maybe a bit different, but made in partnership.

Disclaimer:
I don't know crap about the "snow white", or "elmo" tunes. I just used them and Davids name for the hell of it.
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  #81  
Old 04-23-2009, 09:50 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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PHP and Sniper tunes aren't interchangable with some file renaming? I was under the assumption that you could swap between the two programs. No?


No, Sniper files are encrypted.




I wasn't crucifying anyone. I am under the assumption, from the information I have (I didn't read any other threads), that someone released or was going to release something that belong to DP at one point. I have asked several times for clarification, but really didn't get any, just sarcasm. I wished I had more time to read every one of the 700 diesel message boards, but I just don't.
Below is the original quote in question, notice the parts in bold.
I apologize for my tone towards you, I thought you already knew the origins of this thread and were dead set against someone knew to the scene.
Seems the gentleman is only trying to be helpful and was willing to do so for no cost. Bill and Tim were at one time in the same shoes as this guy is, now look what they have to offer
Quote:
I have successfully reprogrammed my dp tuner because I got bigger injectors. Saved me some money. Easier than you think. Here is how to do it. Buy a burn 2 chip programmer with F2A Ford Module Programming Adapter and F2E Integrated Ford EEC Computer Reading Interface from Moates.net. Then download a gui software like eec editor or Tunerpro which are free. Use the hardware to get the stock bin file out of your pcm. Then load the .def file that I have created and will give to you if you want it. Then use the GUI to edit your engines paramiters. Then burn it to the chip using burn 2. The hardware is only 95 dollars for everything and the and you got complete control of every option to change in the 7.3.
Notice no where does it say he was giving away or selling anything that belonged to DP tuner.
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  #82  
Old 04-23-2009, 09:59 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

Not being an AHole... but who is Johnboy? Obviously a tuner...
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  #83  
Old 04-23-2009, 10:28 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

I still wish I had the burn2 sitting on my desk sometimes.....
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  #84  
Old 04-23-2009, 10:43 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

Quote:
Notice no where does it say he was giving away or selling anything that belonged to DP tuner.
Now I'm with you. From original few posts it appeared that he was giving away the definition files from DP. When that stuff starts getting passed around it never ends well. Perhaps I was just cranky yesterday morning because I had to change some Dmax injectors.

Quote:
Not being an AHole... but who is Johnboy? Obviously a tuner...
Nobody. I like to stay as far under the radar as possible.
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  #85  
Old 04-23-2009, 11:16 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

I can find out who you are... Why not just say??
I'm really j/w...
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  #86  
Old 04-23-2009, 11:19 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by aggie View Post
The Dmax guys have been doing this for a while. They all share files on their forums. Everything is to be taken for what it is, just a free file someone else made. It might be the greatest advancement in history, or it could result in fire and destruction for the truck. I think youre right though, it would further the powerstroke performance as a whole. The professional tuners will still have their tricks and tips and what not to use that they wont openly give out, and it should be that way.

In a way, while it seems like the guys making the software will be the ones making the real bucks, i almost wouldnt mind. Its tough to tune a truck when a customer comes in and says "i want less timing and i want XXXX icp". Well what is less and xxxx numerically? the point is, will the true enthusiast that know a bit, but not as much as they think they do, ever be happy with a tune? Or will it be a losing battle? Just a few things to ponder.

I have no idea how to build templates or def files either, so as far as that goes id be all ears. I just know how to use the ones provided to me by sct, php, and sniper.


the only word that comes to mind is.......BINGO.

Like i said there are PLENTY of those that will not choose to go down this road, I have spent countless hours on my Dmax with EFI live. Most guys just want plug/play/smoke/fast.

End of Story.
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Old 04-23-2009, 11:26 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

The fact is that every chip out there can be read by any person who has the capability. I can't speak for everyone out there -- nor would I want to -- but I know that the main issue that we've had for several years is people distributing Bill's calibrations and claiming them as their own.

There is definitely a certain amount of pride in coming up with something cool and different -- even if only slightly so, in some cases -- than anyone else's tunes, and people really should get credit where it's due.

As far as distributing our calibrations so that people can learn from them and use them as a springboard... well, heck, that's what we've been doing ever since we sold our DP-Tuner Software (not the company) and RDTs to Jody, Tony, Dennis, and LOADS of other people when we owned Diesel Power! We've been open to sharing ideas for years, and most people who purchased DP-Tuner Software have acted ethically. It's the people who took Bill's tunes and sold them as their own that we've had a problem with. If you think about it, we even posted ON THIS FORUM how our Whisper Mode tune works, and that was some pretty cool $hit.

NOBODY is REQUIRED to share here -- or anywhere else, for that matter! That being said, I have a feeling that the idea of open source tuning being discussed on this forum would be very limited to only a few tuners who already have these discussions with each other all the time; Bill's always on the phone with Tony, David, Jonathan, Matt, Mike, and others, as well as our Minotaur customers discussing how to do this or that or what tables to manipulate. Just my
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  #88  
Old 04-23-2009, 11:26 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

Johnboy has been around this game for a long time. Long before this site was here.

Tom
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Old 04-24-2009, 12:44 AM
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Re: Open source tuning

I assumed that... I was simply trying to figure out what company...
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  #90  
Old 04-24-2009, 01:49 AM
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Re: Open source tuning

Sleeper, I just have a small independent shop. I have been around the Powerstroke scene since the beginning. I am far from what many people would call a tuner. I can make files for the trucks that come through my shop, but I don't hardly sell to the masses like many on here do. That is not my intention. On any given day I could be tuning a Mustang, Powerstroke, V10 whatever, Expedition, or like last week, I had a 69 El Camino with a blown 468 on the dyno. I also work on the Cummins and Dmaxes as well.

I am spread far to thin in my little shop to be half as good as most of the guys who would be labeled tuners. I have a nice little local niche carved out for myself and that's all I need to make a good living.
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Old 04-24-2009, 02:25 AM
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Re: Open source tuning

I assumed that... I was simply trying to figure out what company...
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  #92  
Old 04-24-2009, 06:28 AM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by Johnboy3 View Post
PHP and Sniper tunes aren't interchangable with some file renaming? I was under the assumption that you could swap between the two programs. No?
Sniper will open PHP files because we DO NOT ENCRYPT OUR FILES. However, PHP can't open Sniper files because they are encrypted.

If you want to discuss Open Source, consider this: How many other "tuning software" companies out there besides PHP provide UNENCRYPTED binaries that you can look at, modify, and load into whatever chip/programmer you desire? Except EEC Editor (which Moates uses), I can't think of any. Some won't even let you load a standard binary.

Yes, we do encrypt the definitions but that's simply a matter of economics for us. We have spent years developing the definitions and we have to make a living somehow. However, if you want to figure out the definitions, it's not hard and just takes time.

One other thing to think about. In regards to the whole "DIY Tuning" section, does anyone ever notice which companies have absolutely nothing to contribute? Ever wonder why? I just find it curiously amusing.
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  #93  
Old 04-24-2009, 12:43 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by theSLEEPER View Post
I assumed that... I was simply trying to figure out what company...
There are some videos of Johnboy's PSD from way back in the day when he was one of the few making big power with them. Thing was mean.
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  #94  
Old 04-24-2009, 05:49 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

I would define open source code as the code that runs the ECM not the GUI that displays tables on the screen. My post was not about saying it could not or should not be done but more about if you do it understand the risk involved in doing it. Using any of the current software to make chips up is no big deal and making one format that everyone was to follow would be simple as well but I think most would not spend the time and effort to go back and redo it for the limited market in the 7.3L field. Motes makes chips, TS make chips and yes TTS still makes chips. Most everyone else out there buys from one of the three of us for the chips themselves. There may be a few more that I've missed but its not very many, if I was to guess there would not be 3 more for a total of 6 manufactures of the chips for the EEC-IV and EEC -V.

As Bill said it's not all that hard to reverse the definition tables, but what about all the other tables and constants that are yet not identified? There is no reason any one base file should run better or worse in a given application if we knew all of the code, but since we don't we use the base that works the best and go from there. When you hear people telling you use this base code or send in your ECM and we will flash it to a different base code that is the reason for it! It's called a lack of knowledge to fix the under lying issue. Sharing files if you would like to call it that has been going on for years.
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  #95  
Old 04-24-2009, 05:52 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerHungry View Post
One other thing to think about. In regards to the whole "DIY Tuning" section, does anyone ever notice which companies have absolutely nothing to contribute? Ever wonder why? I just find it curiously amusing.
Bill, you have to have some idea of what's going on in there to contribute...
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  #96  
Old 04-24-2009, 06:27 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by Diesel Tech View Post
As Bill said it's not all that hard to reverse the definition tables, but what about all the other tables and constants that are yet not identified? There is no reason any one base file should run better or worse in a given application if we knew all of the code, but since we don't we use the base that works the best and go from there. When you hear people telling you use this base code or send in your ECM and we will flash it to a different base code that is the reason for it! It's called a lack of knowledge to fix the under lying issue. Sharing files if you would like to call it that has been going on for years.
Steve,

I agree with you on 99.6% of what you said there. However, I have found one or two situations where the base calibration OS (aside from the parameters, maps, and functions) has actually caused a change in the way the vehicle functions. We have built hundreds of "hybrid calibrations" over the years on different calibration bases and have found that even with all the parameters 100% matched, there is something in the OS portion of the calibration that causes the maps or functions to be processed differently and results in an overall performance change. This is often the reason for changing to a different base calibration, although using different calibrations can often be used to mask poor or ineffective code.

As always, we know where much of the 7.3L tuning started from and I respect your opinion over just about anyone else in the industry. Just wish you had more time to post and share your knowledge. :)

Take care.
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  #97  
Old 04-24-2009, 06:46 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by theSLEEPER View Post
I'm not exactly sure what you two are going at... So I'll tell you what I envision as the perfect sharing-learning-self tuning platform.

Capability to receive and read any tune that is usable in a PowerStroke's PCM.

Capability to then adjust that tune in anyway you want.

Capabilty to install any tune into your chip without removing the chip from your truck. Understandably you would have a limited number of positions...

And of course the ability to share tunes... on a forum would be nice, but over e-mail would be acceptable.

Let's travel to the land of make-believe...

I have a 6 pos. chip with some tunes of my own.

Me: David... I'd like to see your "Snow White" and "Elmo" tunes.

David: Ok. Let me find it *sends "Snow White" and "elmo" tunes.*

I plug my laptop in and load those two tunes into my chip while still in the truck and drive it for a week to get a feel for the tunes.

After I get a feel for everything... I notice I really like the way the "elmo" tune fuels up top, but the shift pattern doesn't fit me for daily driving and there is more timing than I like down low.

I like the way the "snow white" tune feels down low, but it's a little much up top on fuel and timing.

The way my tunes shift are great IMO and I don't want to change much about them...

Then I get on my laptop and lay all of these tunes out, and make them all work together by taking hints about where PW, "timing", ICP and other options are.

I imagine the real art of it all is getting them to flow smoothly but in the end getting the result you were looking for.

I show David what I came up with and he looks it over and says "Cool, looks like a good strong DD tune." and tries it out for a week but decides there's a few things he could do... A few "tricks". And sends it back...

And we keep going until we both have nice tunes for our trucks... maybe a bit different, but made in partnership.

Disclaimer:
I don't know crap about the "snow white", or "elmo" tunes. I just used them and Davids name for the hell of it.
I don't know if you guys missed this because it's on the last page or what...

But could it ever happen this way? Or am I just WAAAAY off in left field???
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  #98  
Old 04-24-2009, 07:18 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by theSLEEPER View Post
I don't know if you guys missed this because it's on the last page or what...

But could it ever happen this way? Or am I just WAAAAY off in left field???
Your not even in the ballpark














But yes you could do that
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  #99  
Old 04-24-2009, 07:23 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by Powerstroke Racer View Post
Your not even in the ballpark














But yes you could do that
See... now I'm REALLY confused!
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  #100  
Old 04-24-2009, 07:31 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

Where's DP tuner? Do they ever visit this forum?
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  #101  
Old 04-24-2009, 07:32 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by bbbxcursion View Post
Where's DP tuner? Do they ever visit this forum?
They never come around any more.

Its to bad really... I like there platform they are using.
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  #102  
Old 04-24-2009, 07:38 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

Bill

That's just what I mean, the parts that we have never spent the time to figure out is where things are hidden. There are limiter in there that make one base OS and calibration work better than others no matter what we seem to do with it. To me that just means we do not understand it well enough at this point in time. The problem for me is just not worth the effort any longer to chase it. This is where open source code shines as you can get many to work on these issues but it's not at the level of tuning. Just taking any number of the software packages that allow a user to change isn't going to get anything further along, but would be of some fun for some owners.

Then again maybe I just do not think of tuning as open source code the same way as others do.
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  #103  
Old 04-24-2009, 08:00 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by bbbxcursion View Post
Where's DP tuner? Do they ever visit this forum?
Yeah... I've seen them viewing... No insight though.

Go figure.
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  #104  
Old 04-24-2009, 08:18 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

That sucks, Jody's a real smart guy too.
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  #105  
Old 04-24-2009, 08:21 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

I gotta be real honest. If I made my living strictly off of programming and live tuning....I wouldnt give away anything.
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  #106  
Old 04-24-2009, 08:27 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by Diesel Tech View Post
Bill

That's just what I mean, the parts that we have never spent the time to figure out is where things are hidden. There are limiter in there that make one base OS and calibration work better than others no matter what we seem to do with it. To me that just means we do not understand it well enough at this point in time. The problem for me is just not worth the effort any longer to chase it. This is where open source code shines as you can get many to work on these issues but it's not at the level of tuning. Just taking any number of the software packages that allow a user to change isn't going to get anything further along, but would be of some fun for some owners.

Then again maybe I just do not think of tuning as open source code the same way as others do.
Not sure of anyone else thoughts but that right there is why I am interested, there are plenty of smart guys out there with time to kill that would do it just for the challenge.
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  #107  
Old 04-24-2009, 08:58 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by PTSUPERD View Post
I gotta be real honest. If I made my living strictly off of programming and live tuning....I wouldnt give away anything.
But Bill at PHP does exactly that...


Guess some people are just more shellfish....
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  #108  
Old 04-24-2009, 09:43 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

As Bill pointed out to me in a PM today, he is tuning for the 6.0, 6.4 and a bunch of gas stuff. The % of his sales that are based on 7.3L owners is apparently pretty low.

Jody does do 6.0L tuning, but I don't believe he's doing the 6.4 and his gas tuning is very limited. When it comes to giving away his 7.3L stuff, he's got more to lose. I frankly don't blame him for remaining tight lipped about his tuning, I'm sure I'd be the same way in his position. It has little to do with being selfish and a LOT to do with the fact that it's his livlihood and how he and Diane feed their kids and pay their bills.
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  #109  
Old 04-24-2009, 09:56 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

Yeah I forgot he's got kids to feed.
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  #110  
Old 04-24-2009, 10:05 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

Ok ok....
My bad. I guess it's just sour grapes because I'd really like something like the F6, but I don't want to be limited to one tuner...

And I still think he could share insight if he's such a great guy... Noone asked him to give up any of his secrets....

I think there's a lot to be gained by selling his F6's hardware, but instead, they have the "exclusive" rights to it and noone else can get it or burn onto it...

What about that technology that he has that allows him to tune a truck while it's running without removing the PCM. Is that available to the public?
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  #111  
Old 04-24-2009, 10:28 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by theSLEEPER View Post
Ok ok....


What about that technology that he has that allows him to tune a truck while it's running without removing the PCM. Is that available to the public?
that's not proprietary technology to dp tuner. I think Bill has already posted somewhere in this forum the equipment needed, what is available, and what he uses to live tune, well maybe not EXACTLY what he uses...
but the hardware is available......
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  #112  
Old 04-24-2009, 10:34 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

the hardware is available, no problem there.
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  #113  
Old 04-26-2009, 02:28 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Ok ok....
My bad. I guess it's just sour grapes because I'd really like something like the F6, but I don't want to be limited to one tuner...

And DP-Tuner did what to you to make you have "sour grapes"?

And I still think he could share insight if he's such a great guy... Noone asked him to give up any of his secrets....

The whole tune is secret otherwise it would be listed as FREE on there website.

FWIW, PHP is the ONLY group out there that shares anything, but let me ask you this, how far are they sharing? I mean yeah they answer basic questions but thats about it. Or is this keyboard racing? The same goes for the Dmax group, none of the real tuners share anything and rightfully so.....this whole "sharing" thing is a good idea but it also reminds me of a toddler crying cause his bubba wont share.



I think there's a lot to be gained by selling his F6's hardware, but instead, they have the "exclusive" rights to it and noone else can get it or burn onto it...

Its called business.....Do you change tunes like you change underware?

What about that technology that he has that allows him to tune a truck while it's running without removing the PCM. Is that available to the public?

What DieselTech said is how I feel. For some reason or another this specific platform 7.3L got left behind BIG time in the tuning arena. All it takes is for someone to be ballsy enough to shove a EFI style tuning software out there and let it rip. Tuning for the 7.3 is stuck in the past worse than a hippie.


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  #114  
Old 04-26-2009, 03:14 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

The whole idea of "this or that tuner doesn't share" is kind of a moot point really. It's really a specific tuner's choice as to how they choose to run their business. Look at John Woods or Brian at BTS for example... they don't post in the transmission section of the forum telling people how to rebuild their transmissions or diagnosing transmission problems over the internet.

However, they will gladly talk to you over the phone or in person, and share lots of information with you face to face. It's just a perference of how each individual wants to do business with their customers.

A few posts in this thread are referring to DP-Tuner. Now Jody himself rarely visits the forums, and if you look at his post counts they are extremely low in any forum that he is a member. Diane on the other hand is on the forums extensively at times, but mainly to provide customer support when needed. That is how they choose to run their business, and for years it has been working well for them. I have talked to Jody face to face on several occasions, and he is much more open about tuning than some might realize. On that note though, this is his livelyhood and he does want to remain in business. So naturally he is going to protect certain aspects of his business just like all the other vendors on this forum.

Everyone has a different approach to running their own business. It's what makes them all unique and gives them that specific niche in the market that attracts customers. DP-Tuner, PHP, Gearhead Automotive, DI, TW, and others all have a very very loyal customer following. Gauge the strength of a company based on customer satisfaction, and that's where you'll find a winning combination. Of course this industry is constantly changing, and all of the tuners I've mentioned have done an excellent job of adapting. Now the industry will change more in the coming months and years, and you can bet that these guys (and gals) will adapt and work their magic.

Honestly, think back to just 4 or 5 years ago, and look at how far tuning has come today. Big strides have been made, yet we are still just scratching the surface.
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  #115  
Old 04-26-2009, 07:08 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

There are already plenty of software packages for the 7.3L out there so I do not understand why it's compared to EFI Live being the end all save all type thing here. The 7.3L has just as much around for it but it takes time to use it and most are unwilling. There is plenty missing from EFI Live just as there is from PHP, Sniper and the others that there you can already get for the 7.3L. What it takes is a package effort to make a 7.3L run so you cannot compare it to a common rail engine.

What need to be worked on is the CODE for a 7.3L not Tuning as that's not going to solve it. I just do not see that happening at this point in time.
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  #116  
Old 04-26-2009, 08:39 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel Tech View Post
There are already plenty of software packages for the 7.3L out there so I do not understand why it's compared to EFI Live being the end all save all type thing here. The 7.3L has just as much around for it but it takes time to use it and most are unwilling. There is plenty missing from EFI Live just as there is from PHP, Sniper and the others that there you can already get for the 7.3L. What it takes is a package effort to make a 7.3L run so you cannot compare it to a common rail engine.

What need to be worked on is the CODE for a 7.3L not Tuning as that's not going to solve it. I just do not see that happening at this point in time.
almost...

While I do agree tuning is important there is not some massive amount of HP that will be magically unlocked by some random undiscovered table. Code changes could be very helpful, but will never give us the ability to command an injection event large enough at high RPMs to give us the ability to fuel there even at the same injection duration as a p-pumped motor. For the real high end guys the ability to have an injection duration with a real quantity of fuel at a high RPM is going to take serious mechanical advancements. The computer is already capable of giving us a large enough duration, the problem is the mechanics can not inject a large enough quantity of fuel in that time period.

Now that doesn't interest many of the people in this thread but it is my pimary interest in tuning my truck myself is simply to tune and dial in some of the parts that I have been working on. I built components to act a certain way and who better to tune an engine with those parts than the guy that understands how and why those exact modifications were made. I know I have a learning curve ahead of me on this, but it doesn't matter who tunes it there is a learning curve for that unique combination of parts. No one has tuned injectors like mine. Period.

Go or Blow!
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  #117  
Old 04-26-2009, 11:40 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

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Originally Posted by Pocket View Post
The whole idea of "this or that tuner doesn't share" is kind of a moot point really. It's really a specific tuner's choice as to how they choose to run their business. Look at John Woods or Brian at BTS for example... they don't post in the transmission section of the forum telling people how to rebuild their transmissions or diagnosing transmission problems over the internet.

However, they will gladly talk to you over the phone or in person, and share lots of information with you face to face. It's just a perference of how each individual wants to do business with their customers.

A few posts in this thread are referring to DP-Tuner. Now Jody himself rarely visits the forums, and if you look at his post counts they are extremely low in any forum that he is a member. Diane on the other hand is on the forums extensively at times, but mainly to provide customer support when needed. That is how they choose to run their business, and for years it has been working well for them. I have talked to Jody face to face on several occasions, and he is much more open about tuning than some might realize. On that note though, this is his livelyhood and he does want to remain in business. So naturally he is going to protect certain aspects of his business just like all the other vendors on this forum.

Everyone has a different approach to running their own business. It's what makes them all unique and gives them that specific niche in the market that attracts customers. DP-Tuner, PHP, Gearhead Automotive, DI, TW, and others all have a very very loyal customer following. Gauge the strength of a company based on customer satisfaction, and that's where you'll find a winning combination. Of course this industry is constantly changing, and all of the tuners I've mentioned have done an excellent job of adapting. Now the industry will change more in the coming months and years, and you can bet that these guys (and gals) will adapt and work their magic.

Honestly, think back to just 4 or 5 years ago, and look at how far tuning has come today. Big strides have been made, yet we are still just scratching the surface.
Good post Curtis, I totally agree with you.

Tom
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  #118  
Old 04-27-2009, 07:22 PM
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Re: Open source tuning

Quote:
Originally Posted by ITPDiesel View Post
As Bill pointed out to me in a PM today, he is tuning for the 6.0, 6.4 and a bunch of gas stuff. The % of his sales that are based on 7.3L owners is apparently pretty low.

Jody does do 6.0L tuning, but I don't believe he's doing the 6.4 and his gas tuning is very limited. When it comes to giving away his 7.3L stuff, he's got more to lose. I frankly don't blame him for remaining tight lipped about his tuning, I'm sure I'd be the same way in his position. It has little to do with being selfish and a LOT to do with the fact that it's his livlihood and how he and Diane feed their kids and pay their bills.
I'm not exactly sure how Jody would have more to lose than anyone else, and I'm don't understand why PHP is being compared to DP-Tuner in this post. Before Bill went to work for Edge in 2004, Jody supported his family very well with his computer business; I've not doubt that if 7.3L tuning dried up and blew away tomorrow, he'd still be able to pay his bills just fine. He's a smart man.

FWIW, when we owned Diesel Power, all we did was 7.3L tuning, and we were still selling our DP-Tuner Software and RDT files. We were able to pay our bills and feed our kids.


As I said in another post, nobody is required to share anything on here or anywhere else. It's a decision made by each individual.

When we unexpectedly had to form PHP in the Fall of 2007, we focused on the F-150 because Bill's name had been out of the forum loop while he was at Edge, and we've made a huge impact in that market over the past two years. Since we started posting on the diesel forums again a few months ago, 7.3L customers have our phone ringing off the hook! We get phone calls every day from new customers and people who are thrilled that Bill is back in the 7.3L game and offering a variety of options for the 7.3L. We even had a call from someone who'd been trying to track Bill down for the past three years ever since he'd spoken with one of our Diesel Power customers!

As I told someone this weekend, as long as you provide a reliable product at a fair price, customers will be knocking down your door.

Even with open source tuning information being made public, I doubt anyone's going to be going out of business any time soon.
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