It would work fine, I ran an h2e over a ht60 which is reverse rotation. It all depends on if you have the fuel. But beware it will be a pita trying to rig it up on a street truck and keeping things like the heat and a/c. This was on my pulling truck and I didnt care about the heat or a/c and took the heater box out. An hx60 moves around 15-1600 cfm so it will move a little air.
The GT47 shows to be capable of over 2000CFM, and I would consider it a small first stage compressor. So if the turbocharger in question is capable of around 1500 or so CFM, then I would say that might be appropriate for a towing setup.
For a "hot" setup I think something closer to 3000CFM would be appropriate. Although if I could get my hands on a compressor tachometer from Garrett I would be able to say for sure.
The biggest thing to get your head around is that you will be operating the first stage so "low" in the map (vertically, PR wise) that it takes a very large compressor to remain efficient with a lot of flow at such a low PR. You basically have to run a compressor capable of 150% the flow you intend to run so that it is efficient at the 20-40 or so psi you will likely run it at.
Run some numbers, rub some dirt between your fingers, drop some grass and note the direction of the wind, consult your nearest ouija board or whatever it is you can think of, then pick a compressor and go for it.
The GT47 shows to be capable of over 2000CFM, and I would consider it a small first stage compressor. So if the turbocharger in question is capable of around 1500 or so CFM, then I would say that might be appropriate for a towing setup.
For a "hot" setup I think something closer to 3000CFM would be appropriate.
what power level would you consider
a tow setup? a hot setup?
i posted the other day asking about the hx60....with the same intentions as the OP here, just didnt get real specific....
i have a set of B's with .012 edm nozzles(facotry displacement), im wanting compounds for when these finally go in(who knows when) would these be too "small" for a HOT setup? i'd like to be around 500-550 horse at minimum...? thoughts?
What do you think of the GT55? I have my plans (dreams) set in the way of that, is that 2xxx cfm? I want to use that with a procharger. It's gonna have to be down by the headlight, no way it's gonna fit up under the cowl. I'm hoping this might turn the fuel i got into a "haze"
I don't like the 55. It only flows marginally better than the 47 at max, but the map is narrow and seems more suited for a high pressure stage, such as when used as a single charger. I would either run a GT60 or equivalent if I wanted more. But that's just me. I could be dead wrong.
BW is supposed to be kicking ass with thier extended tip compressors. That's what I keep hearing anyway.
An S5xx? I know the 400's pretty well, but im not too familiar with the S500's. I did see the CFM isnt that MUCH more, but it's just a much bigger turbo, but you are right, the more i look at the map, its alot steeper and would work better in a large-ass single on a drag car or something. Ive yet to see a GT60 for sale anyway. I'll be looking into the BW stuff, thanks.
S500/510's can be had in a 86-95mm inducer. They are also comparable to a hx80 or 82 which will flow almost 1000cfm more than a s400. I also know that the hx80/82's can be modded up to a 4.25" inducer.
Not sure bout that. Personally I would just run a hx80/82 if you want something that size. Lots of options for them as far as wheels and housings. Weve got 3 of em on the shelf in the shop.
So here's my questions on compounds-
1: What's the difference between Tow Compounds and Street/race compounds
2: How do you decide the sizings? Why? (the why is the big part to me, because it gives me insight to the logic, which helps me understand, which means I ask less questions later )
3: How do you decide the size of the gate before the HP turbine?
1. A "Tow" setup would be sized for a truck intended for towing. A "street" setup would be setup for running around empty for the most part, with relatively zippy response, not too much hanus smoking from excessive lag, and possibly still be able to tow every once in a blue moon if the need should arise. A "Race" setup would be geared for all out power, and sacrifice towing and street driving if it meant the truck would run faster down the track/ in front of the sled.
2. Sizing is mostly based on rpm and power goals. Higher rpm, and higher power goals require larger compressors. In terms of engine operating rpm, a "Tow" setup would need to be stable, and perform best at a relatively low rpm. Say, between 2000 and 2500rpm. Where a "Street" setup might be set to work best between 2500 and 3000rpm, and a "Race" setup might be setup to work best above 3000rpm.
3. Gate sizing depends on your tolerance for lag to some extent. If you run a smallish housing to reduce lag you will need more from your wastegate, else lose control over the turbocharger at higher rpm. Conversely, if you run a relatively large turbine housing that is already going to be driving the turbocharger correctly in the upper rpm ranges, your wastegate requirements are reduced. I chose a gate roughly the size of one up-pipe tube. It was also a gate I was familiar with, and one that used a V-band mount, greatly increasing flexibility in the initial fabrication and mock up.
Basically I went and read the specs on that compound set up and knew right away that the primary was sized way too small. Another compound set up built incorrectly. sigh
About 1 year ago Beddins removed about a 1400 CFM primary off a 5.9 and installed some huge old turbo he had just lying around as he knew it was close enough. Result? About a 300 RWHP increase w/ no other changes to the pump or anything else. Seriously the truck went from a smoky pig w/ 450 hp to 750 hp that was scary it was so undrivable. It would go from 50# to 100# boost instantly and would be sideways instantly as well. BTW, Beddins does not run wastegates on his sets ups and they aren't really needed if the turbos are sized correctly for each other and are both working equally as hard. Of course that's hard to pull off w/o lots of experimentation so wastegates can serve a purpose. The way to properly test for this is just to run two boost gauges (pre-cooled) after each turbo.
As Charles tried to explain earlier and that so few seem to understand, the motor will only have as much air as the Primary (the really big turbo first in line) flows. You can not MAKE any air after that you can only compress it further to stuff it into the cylinders. That is all the secondary can do. It does not MAKE anymore air. The idea behind compounds is to keep air MASS high and to do that you must raise boost WHILE keeping compressor efficiency at it's highest for both turbos so as not to heat the air more than neccesary. That mean the primary turbo needs to be operating at it's PEAK efficiency and that requires very low boost. Somewhere below 25# of boost. This means you have to size your primary to flow the TOTAL amount of air the motor needs AT 25# of boost of less. So when you look at your compressor map to choose your primary turbo it needs to be flowing somewhere around 1800-2000 cfm at only 20-25# of boost for say a 700 hp motor to run clean! That takes a HUGE turbo.
For example, my GT42R might flow something like 1150 CFMs at 50# of boost but if I wanted to use it as a primary turbo in a compound set up, at 20#s of boost it is flowing closer to 400 CFM. So as a primary it would be utterly pathetic and not provide nearly enough total air flow for any kind of real hp. If I chose to use it, it would just do too much work, it would not run at peak efficiency, and much of the advantage of a compound set up would be lost.
Most of the compound set ups I see have the primary doing all of the work and that creates lots of hot air and less mass.
Basically I went and read the specs on that compound set up and knew right away that the primary was sized way too small. Another compound set up built incorrectly. sigh
The problem with compounds isn't running more pressure at all. The problem is moving that kind of air at such low pressure. As Sun pointed out again, the problem is moving so much air at such low pressure for the first stage. It requires a very large wheel compared to a wheel size appropriate for a single stage at a much higher PR.
Running more boost, actually makes it easier to find an appropriate first stage compressor, as you will be higher in the map. Unfortunately, you run much more than 20 to 30 or so lbs per stage, and turbocharger efficiency will be the least of your worries. Your connecting rod may make an unexpected visit to the pavement.
Some of the larger (GT60, hx82) chargers maintain a 75% or higher efficiency into the 3.0 and 3.5 PR...
If you ran 30lbs (PR of ~3) on each stage you would have over 120psi on the manifold. Whoops!
Run a balanced setup at a PR of 3.5 per stage..... now you're talking 165lbs of boost. That's with just over 36lbs on the first stage. So unless you run more pressure on the first stage than the second (which is not uncommon, or necessarily a bad thing) then you can see how low in the map you will always be when chosing a first stage compressor. And knowing this, it should become immediately clear that a very large compressor will be needed for things to work as well as they could.
The high PR isn't unecessary it's simply outside the mechanical limits of the engine in most cases.
I have pinned my 35lb gauge on my first stage compressor, but at the same time the second stage was running a mere 7 to 10lbs. I have noticed that the truck runs the best, smokes the least, runs the coolest and has the lowest drive pressure when the stages are balanced, or close to it.
And this is coming from someone who doesn't even have an intercooler on the second stage... just two water nozzles.
I think a GT42 and a GT60 would make a nice pair. I know I would love the chance to find out.
Charles, when you say youre making 7-10 lbs, you're saying it's making a 1.5 (ish) PR, right?
Which would mean your total boost in that situation is :
(35+14.7)*1.5= 75 psi Abs. = 60 boost? I thought you were running up into the 70's and 80's...???
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