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HPOP?

7K views 29 replies 14 participants last post by  TrailerHauler 
#1 ·
I've got an early 99 f-250 when starting it cranks about twice as long as a new truck would before it fires. It smokes (white) on startup for a minute or so, longer when it's cold out, then clears up. I have noticed it smoking a little longer, loss of power, and cranks a little longer before starting. Could all of this be caused by a weak HPOP not giving sufficient oil/fuel pressure? It has not thrown any codes. Truck has 165k on it, HPOP and injectors have probably never been touched, just a guess though. Thanks in advance for any help.
 
#2 ·
it could be hpop check your level in the hpop when its cold should be about a 1/2 inch below cover. Or it could be you compression if you crankcase is leaking, check your blowby flip you oil filler cap upside down and set it ontop of the fillerneck for the oil, then start the truck it shouldnt move it may vibrate off but it shouldnt get blown off.
 
#3 ·
For hard starts and white smoke, I would first suspect batteries and the glow plugs. Weaker batteries will cause slow cranking. Bad glow plugs will cause extra white smoke after starting, as well as contribute to hard starting. Last, low compression on an old and worn out engine can cause the same problems. White smoke on cold starts is unburnt fuel due to cold cylinders or low compression. To properly burn diesel, you need heat and compression. At 165K miles, I'm betting glow plugs, not compression problems.

Typically if you have issues with the HPOP (ie bad IPR or whatever), you'll get an erratic idle, stalling, hard start or no start. However, you don't typically get white smoke associated with it.
 
#17 ·
For hard starts and white smoke, I would first suspect batteries and the glow plugs. Weaker batteries will cause slow cranking. Bad glow plugs will cause extra white smoke after starting, as well as contribute to hard starting. Last, low compression on an old and worn out engine can cause the same problems. White smoke on cold starts is unburnt fuel due to cold cylinders or low compression. To properly burn diesel, you need heat and compression. At 165K miles, I'm betting glow plugs, not compression problems.
Ditto!
 
#4 ·
What Pocket said
 
#5 ·
Yep, check the hard start no start sticky thread at the top of this forum. It will tell you all about the glow plug system.
 
#9 ·
:whs:
Mine got to the point it would not start w/o plugging it in for an hour or so. I checked the GPR it was fine(put a Stancor on anyway) then checked the glow plugs and 7 were graveyard dead. Replaced them and now it will start at 15° with no problems, and hardly any white smoke.
Oh yea, I did have to replace the batteries the other day, I guess with all 8 glow plugs working now, it sucked the remaining life out of the old ones???
 
#7 ·
Dont mean to hijack your thread, but i am still learning the lingo what is an HPOP?
 
#8 ·
When you see a green word or abbreviation, put your cursor on it.

HPOP = High pressure Oil Pump. It supplies high pressure oil to our fuel injectors.
 
#10 ·
Check what I wrote about the hpop in the thread a few above this one about Cold Starting problems. it might help I dont know but its worth a shot. The oil in your hpop doesnt circulate like it was designed to, and overtime will sludge and can cause injectors to stick. it will severely reduce fuel pressure as far from 53psi down into the 30s until the sludge gets warmed up and flows better. It can white smoke b/c the injectors are sticking open slightly longer and overfueling. Can cause hard cold starting and a very lopey idle when cold starting. and can cause overall loss of power warm or cold b/c of the sludge not letting it build the pressure it needs. I hope this helps you.:ford:
 
#11 ·
:doh:I know some of you may be saying i'm a moron for saying it will white smoke when overfueled, when it should be black. I've seen it happen, i'll explain. I worked on a Cummins ISX that someone had run some bad biodiesel through and it stuck 2 of the 6 injectors almost wide open, the rest worked fine. It white smoked at every rpm even WFO and loped at idle. It white smoked b/c when you throw WAY TOO MUCH fuel into a cylinder, I mean so much past the point its black, its white bc its pretty much liquid fuel, not half burnt fuel like black smoke. It loped bc it was only those 2 cylinders, and after running hard for a while it would start to clear up. I hope that mad a little sense. Just my $.02
 
#12 ·
I know some of you may be saying i'm a moron for saying it will white smoke when overfueled, when it should be black. I've seen it happen, i'll explain. I worked on a Cummins ISX that someone had run some bad biodiesel through and it stuck 2 of the 6 injectors almost wide open, the rest worked fine. It white smoked at every rpm even WFO and loped at idle. It white smoked b/c when you throw WAY TOO MUCH fuel into a cylinder, I mean so much past the point its black, its white bc its pretty much liquid fuel, not half burnt fuel like black smoke. It loped bc it was only those 2 cylinders, and after running hard for a while it would start to clear up. I hope that mad a little sense. Just my $.02
That's too much fuel, hence the incomplete burning. You would have to have seriously bad injectors on the PSD for that to happen.


Check what I wrote about the hpop in the thread a few above this one about Cold Starting problems. it might help I dont know but its worth a shot. The oil in your hpop doesnt circulate like it was designed to, and overtime will sludge and can cause injectors to stick. it will severely reduce fuel pressure as far from 53psi down into the 30s until the sludge gets warmed up and flows better. It can white smoke b/c the injectors are sticking open slightly longer and overfueling. Can cause hard cold starting and a very lopey idle when cold starting. and can cause overall loss of power warm or cold b/c of the sludge not letting it build the pressure it needs. I hope this helps you.
The HPOP doesn't build up sludge. That comes from the Powerstrokehelp.com videos on Youtube. Most people here consider those videos a joke. He tries to be helpful, but there's a ton of misinformation in them. The HPOP oil circulates with the rest of the oil, it's not a closed off system. Hence, sludge does not build up.

Anyone that removes the HPOP or the reservoir has seen first hand that there's no sludge buildup.
 
#21 ·
That's too much fuel, hence the incomplete burning. You would have to have seriously bad injectors on the PSD for that to happen.



The HPOP doesn't build up sludge. That comes from the Powerstrokehelp.com videos on Youtube. Most people here consider those videos a joke. He tries to be helpful, but there's a ton of misinformation in them. The HPOP oil circulates with the rest of the oil, it's not a closed off system. Hence, sludge does not build up.

Anyone that removes the HPOP or the reservoir has seen first hand thatthere's no sludge buildup.
SLUDGE CAN AND DOES BUILD UP IN SOME CASES IN THE OIL RAILS IN THE HEADS NOT THE HPOP. USUALLY CYLINDER #8 BECAUSE OF A DESIGN FLAW AT NAVISTAR NOT GETTING ENOUGH FLOW OF OIL COMBINED WITH HIGH ENGINE TEMPS AND BAD MAINTENANCE HABITS. BUT I DOUBT THAT,S WHAT WE ARE DEALING WITH HERE.

BACK TO WHITE99 ISSUE, GETTING IPR% WHEN WARM AND ICP PSI OR VOLTS WHEN CRANKING WOULD BE VERY HELPFULL.

ALSO A GOOD IDEA WOULD BE TO PUT A CLEAR HOSE BETWEEN YOUR FUEL FILTER OUTLET AND INJ PUMP. CHECK FOR BUBBLES

CHECK FUEL PRESURE MIN 45 PSI 56 PSI OPTIMUM

IF YOU CAN'T GET TO A SCANNER , PROBE DARK BLUE AND LIGHT GREEN STRIPED WIRE AT ICP SENSOR WITH VOLTMETER SET TO LOW DC VOLTS.

-WITH KOEO YOU SHOULD HAVE 0.2-0.4 VOLTS WHICH EQUALS TO 0 PSI AT HPOP.

-WHILE CRANKING, IF YOU DON'T GET A MIN OF 0.83 VOLTS, WHICH EQUALS 500PSI AT HPOP IDM WILL NEVER ENERGIZE INJECTORS.

-WHILE IDELING IT SHOULD BE AROUND 1 VOLT

-WHILE DRIVING ON ROAD SHOULD BE 1.5

-WHEN PASSING SOMEONE AT HIGHWAY SPEED WOT SHOULD BE 2-3 VOLTS

-WHEN PASSING A RADAR TRAP GO OFF ROAD AND RIP OFF REAR VIEW MIRROR:doh:
 
#13 ·
I have never seen a cleaner motor than when I pulled off my valve covers, does sludge build up in these motors anywhere?
 
#18 ·
GP's and GPR are fine. How are GP's going to affect performance? I can see the starting/smoke issue but I do not understand the performance aspect. I forgot to mention 2 important things; when accelerating hard, the engine sounds like it's defueling around 1800-2000 rpm; when sitting at idle after the truck is warm, the engine has a slight miss. Any ideas?
 
#19 ·
I forgot to mention 2 important things; when accelerating hard, the engine sounds like it's defueling around 1800-2000 rpm; when sitting at idle after the truck is warm, the engine has a slight miss. Any ideas?
Yeah that part is kinda important too. ;) In your original post I took it as all the problems you had was only in the first few minutes after a cold start. Didn't know you had problems when the engine was warm too.

Without codes being tripped, you're going to have to hook your truck up to a scanner and drive around tracking data. Also running CCT, buzz test, etc might help you find something. At this point, it can be a number of things wrong, and it's a crap shoot without some hard data.

You aren't by chance running a grey CPS, are you?
 
#20 ·
GREAT THREAD!!! :ford:I just noticed, now that I'm educated, that I was experiencing these same issues. That last post hopefully is not my next step. Got a Stancor coming, Doing the meet on Sat in Sacramento, guess I need to check HPOP, GP's & injectors b4 I go much further.
 
#22 ·
SLUDGE CAN AND DOES BUILD UP IN SOME CASES IN THE OIL RAILS IN THE HEADS NOT THE HPOP. USUALLY CYLINDER #8 BECAUSE OF A DESIGN FLAW AT NAVISTAR NOT GETTING ENOUGH FLOW OF OIL COMBINED WITH HIGH ENGINE TEMPS AND BAD MAINTENANCE HABITS. BUT I DOUBT THAT,S WHAT WE ARE DEALING WITH HERE.
The flow issue is with the fuel, not the oil. I've pulled out my #8 injector at around 100K miles and there was zero sludge. The injector looked brand new. If there's any sludge at all, it's from piss poor maintenance.
 
#24 ·
Right in front of the fuel filter bowl sits the HPOP oil reservoir. There is a sensor on the left side of the reservoir cap, and on the right side is a small plug. Remove the plug and look down inside. The oil level should usually be less than an inch from the top.
 
#25 ·
Gotcha, I always got the impression it the inspection plug was on the HPOP itself. Makes sense now, I was in the right area
 
#29 ·
Yeap, I absoultely concur Pocket! I change my oil every 3000 miles and my engine is clean as a whislte, on the inside! And I run Rotella 15W40.
I am interested knowing what the rest of you all are running. I can't see going to synthetic on a high mileage engine. Mine just turned 200,000 and does NOt use oil! :D
 
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