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WWG2 Test - Stock F350 Dually

12K views 45 replies 29 participants last post by  geared_low550 
#1 ·
Here are some more test results of testing with the WWG2. The test vehicle is as follows:

2003 F350 CC, Dually 4WD, VDH5 (TNAA7S3), 230K miles, Injectors and HPOP replaced 6 mos. ago. Otherwise, the truck is completely stock.

As usual, testing was with 8000 Lbs load on the dyno. All runs we competed in 3rd gear locked. Speed was held at a steady 1400 RPM until full throttle was applied. Data sampling was taken from 1500 RPM to 3500 RPM. All testing was achieved with engine and transmission at normal operating temperature with 70º ambient air temp. All runs were datalogged to obtain boost and backpressure readings, along with monitoring EOT, ICP, IPR, and other critical data. Unfortunately, this vehicle was not equipped with a pyrometer so we were not able to observe any changes in EGTs. Datalog pressures were verified with a mechanical boost gauge and are considered to be accurate with +/- 0.25 PSI.

Generated results are as follow:

Stock ECM calibration (minus Speed Limiter and Rev Limiter) - Stock wheel vs. WWG2

Boost:
  • Stock:
    • 7.8 PSI @ 2000
    • 14.3 PSI @ 2500
    • 16.2 PSI @ 3500
  • WWG2:
    • 7.5 PSI @ 2000
    • 14.7 PSI @ 2500
    • 19.8 PSI @ 3500

Backpressure:
  • Stock:
    • 11.9 PSI @ 2000
    • 23.9 PSI @ 2500
    • 31.1 PSI @ 3500
  • WWG2:
    • 10.6 PSI @ 2000
    • 23.3 PSI @ 2500
    • 33.5 PSI @ 3500

Dyno Graphs:
(Click on image to enlarge)


Overall Gains:
(Click on image to enlarge)



Standard PHP 40 Tow - Stock wheel vs. WWG2

Boost:
  • Stock:
    • 8.6 PSI @ 2000
    • 15.0 PSI @ 2500
    • 18.5 PSI @ 3500
  • WWG2:
    • 7.8 PSI @ 2000
    • 16.2 PSI @ 2500
    • 23.8 PSI @ 3500

Backpressure:
  • Stock:
    • 13.4 PSI @ 2000
    • 24.7 PSI @ 2500
    • 35.5 PSI @ 3500
  • WWG2:
    • 10.2 PSI @ 2000
    • 23.2 PSI @ 2500
    • 37.4 PSI @ 3500

Dyno Graphs:
(Click on image to enlarge)


Overall Gains:
(Click on image to enlarge)



Overall Gain - Stock ECM/Stock Wheel vs. PHP 40 Tow Calibration/WWG2

Dyno Graphs:
(Click on image to enlarge)


Overall Gains:
(Click on image to enlarge)


We will be testing another S/D vehicle later this week (Friday) and will post up those results as well as they become available.
 
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6
#2 ·
Awesome results. How did the stock compressor wheel look with 230k?
 
#6 ·
Experienced folks can easily swap in less than 2 hours. First timers, maybe 4 hours. The V-Band clamp on the up-pipe spider is a pain to get off, but lots of PB Blaster, a flat blade screwdriver, and a few choice words will usually help it come right off. Everything else is pretty straightforward. Make sure to not forget the EBV control rod below the exhaust housing. You'll go to yank the turbo off and start cussing because you missed it. It has a snap clip (with a right angle tab) which holds the actuator rod onto the EBV control arm. With a small screwdriver or pair of needlenose pliers, slide the clip TOWARDS the turbo pedestal to release the actuator rod. When reinstalling the turbo, make sure to line up the actuator rod with the EBV control arm BEOFRE bolting the turbo in place. Otherwise it's a real bugger to bet back on the pivot for the EBV control arm.
 
#7 ·
i want one!!!
 
#9 ·
Ive been to about 10 dyno days and seen chipped sd 7.3s make more then those numbers with the factory wheel. Gaining boost doesn't mean more power, you could port the heads and you'll loose boost but you won't loose power.
Not saying this isn't worth it but considering how cheap new compressor wheels are just for a turbo, 20-60 bucks. But when diesel is put in front of turbo it becomes a $200+ wheel. Just a big cash grab. Get enough advertising talking how great the snuggie is, when it is still a robe you put on backwards.,
 
#13 ·
Ive been to about 10 dyno days and seen chipped sd 7.3s make more then those numbers with the factory wheel. Gaining boost doesn't mean more power, you could port the heads and you'll loose boost but you won't loose power.

Not saying this isn't worth it but considering how cheap new compressor wheels are just for a turbo, 20-60 bucks. But when diesel is put in front of turbo it becomes a $200+ wheel. Just a big cash grab. Get enough advertising talking how great the snuggie is, when it is still a robe you put on backwards.,
Regarding your "$20.00 to $60.00" turbo wheels... First, they are cast wheels, not CNC machined billet wheels. Second, they are 60mm (or less) exducer. The WWG2 is a solid billet wheel with an 88mm exducer. So let's think about that for just a moment, shall we? More metal... More Machining... It's going to cost more. There's a reason a Garret GTX4294R costs $2300 and the GTP38R is only $1400. It's bigger. But then again, I guess we should be selling Power Strokes for the same price as Toyotas. They both have 4 wheels. They both have seats. They both have an engine. Why should Ford get more just because it's a diesel? Oh yeah... It's because they cost more to manufacture. :doh:

----------------

Regarding the power numbers, you don't see trucks running a 40 HP tune making 300 HP... Period. This is what a 40 HP Tow tune looks like normally:

Stock Wheel - PHP 40 Tow vs. Stock - Graphs
(Click on image to enlarge)


Stock Wheel - PHP 40 Tow vs. Stock - Overall Gains
(Click on image to enlarge)


This is perfectly in line with what we normally see for a 40 Tow program on an otherwise stock truck. Sure, we've seen trucks make 320-350 HP on the stock turbo and stock injectors, but this was not possible given the limitations of the test truck as I'll explain below.

Why didn't he put the chip to full?? Its not like he couldn't???? Was there no power gains at that level??
I can see how that's great for towing aspect. But when that cummins pulls up on a red light i don't leave that chip on tow to race it goes to max.
We had a perfectly logical reason for stopping at 40 HP. We tried to run an 80 and 120 tune just to see what we could manage with the new wheel, but the ICP completely tanked. Above a 40 HP program we couldn't even make 1800 PSI and IPR was pinned at 94% at the tender speed of 1900 RPM. Even the 40 HP tune was actually causing a P1211 to pop up, but we still managed to put almost 300 to the ground despite the pressure loss. If we could have pushed it further, we would have. The customer is looking into updating his HPOP and when he does, we'll re-dyno it.

It really comes down to this... If you don't like how we dyno test stuff, buy a dyno and do it yourself. That's why we bought a dyno. I got tired of guessing as to what worked and what didn't. Now, I don't get paid for testing anything, other then I maybe get to keep some of the stuff we test. Outside of the occasional freebie, we simply do this so that we can provide not only our customers, but also the average performance enthusiast, reliable and fact-based information about different products. I have no preference one way or the other regarding how well a product works. If it's crap, I'll say so. If it works well, I'll say so. It's that simple. If you have a problem with the WWG2 for whatever reason, then that's your prerogative and you don't have to buy one. However, it does not detract from the fact that the compressor wheel not only works well in EVERY test situation we've presented it with, but also that EVERY person who has tested it (without exception) has noticed rather significant improvements in performance after installing the compressor wheel.

I hope this clears up any questions.

Take care.
 
#10 ·
Well of coarse you've seen chipped trucks make more...but I bet they weren't duallys running only a 40tow tune....
 
#11 ·
Why didn't he put the chip to full?? Its not like he couldn't???? Was there no power gains at that level??
I can see how that's great for towing aspect. But when that cummins pulls up on a red light i don't leave that chip on tow to race it goes to max.
 
#12 ·
Well don't know why... Probably just showing what it does for you while pulling a load.. I use his 40t tune a lot so I am happy he did the test there.
 
#14 ·
I'm someone who will spend 99% of operation time in an econ or tow tune and I was ECSTATIC to see what you've shown, thanks for all the testing effort its APPRECIATED trust me !!! :bowfast:
 
#15 ·
From the graphs it does not look like a huge increase, but a definite increase. I'm assuming this was with an automatic truck.

Are there any plans to test on a manual trans truck? After upgrading my turbo years ago and comparing to others who went a different route it was obvious the automatic and manual requirements have a big impact on the performance of a turbo over the usable RPM range.

The turbo I have now is not ideal for me as it just does not spool fast enough. A quicker spooling turbo would be much more usable for me, especially at the shift points, and going up big hills.

So, any impressions on the spool up improvements with this new wheel?
 
#17 ·
I'm going to apologize ahead of time to everyone reading this post because I'm going to let down my composure and be uncharacteristically obnoxious for a minute.

If your trying to confuse the ones who cant tell an apple from a orange on here im sure you have. I can tell your compairing apples to oranges. 60mm vs 88mm.... well your compairing the inducer to your exducer...... big difference between the 2. Its like measuring the whole tire and saying your rims are 35s...
it would be 80mm for the factory exducer and 88mm exducer for the wwg2.
60mm? inducer vs 58mm factory inducer.(its like saying a gtp38r is a 88mm turbo, its not its a 66mm turbo...). You can confuse some when it comes to turbo talk, not me - ill throw that ball back just as hard. everyone is entitled to there own opionion, this mine.
First off, yes... You're absolutely entitled to your opinion. However, that's all you provided. You offered no factual data supporting that you can locate compressor wheels (sized for anything CLOSE to supporting a diesel) for under $60.00. Diesel turbos and parts cost more... Because they're BIGGER than gas turbos. What's so hard to understand about that? :doh:

Second, the people on this forum are not as stupid as you seem to think they are, and neither am I. I've been in automotive performance for over 30 years and have a solid reputation on this forum as well as others. I was certainly not trying to confuse anyone and I was absolutely comparing EXDUCER to EXDUCER. I went on eBay and found only a couple compressor wheels under $60.00 with an EXDUCER larger than 60mm. Most were in the 40mm to 55mm range and they are ALL cast wheels. Not a single one was billet.

As a matter of fact, I found only one... (Yes, ONE!) BILLET wheel for under $200.00 (Actually, $195.00), which fit a GT3076r (56 mm INDUCER/76 mm EXDUCER). Everything else ranged from $220.00 to $400.00. So where are all these wonderful "$20.00 to $60.00" compressor wheels you seem to have located? Sure they're out there, but they're about the size of a bottle cap. (Okay, THAT is an exaggeration...) I DARE YOU to find a single billet wheel that would be sized for a diesel truck turbo that sells for less than $100.00. Heck, you'd be hard pressed to find an appropriately sized cast wheel for less than $100.00

We've provided factual performance data regarding the comparison between a stock compressor wheel and a billet replacement wheel that CLEARLY showed performance improvements. Not just 4 or 5 HP, but nearly 35 HP gains over just a simple 40 HP tune. Stage 1 injectors gain approximately 60 HP and cost around $1200.00, so you're looking at around $20.00 per HP. Compare that to the WWG2 at $229.00, that's about $6.50 per HP. Seems like a pretty good deal to me... But that's my opinion.

Seriously, why don't you take your apples and your oranges and go and troll somewhere else. :blah: :blah: :blah:


We now return everyone to their regularly scheduled program. LOL
 
#35 ·
I'm going to apologize ahead of time to everyone reading this post because I'm going to let down my composure and be uncharacteristically obnoxious for a minute.



First off, yes... You're absolutely entitled to your opinion. However, that's all you provided. You offered no factual data supporting that you can locate compressor wheels (sized for anything CLOSE to supporting a diesel) for under $60.00. Diesel turbos and parts cost more... Because they're BIGGER than gas turbos. What's so hard to understand about that? :doh:

Second, the people on this forum are not as stupid as you seem to think they are, and neither am I. I've been in automotive performance for over 30 years and have a solid reputation on this forum as well as others. I was certainly not trying to confuse anyone and I was absolutely comparing EXDUCER to EXDUCER. I went on eBay and found only a couple compressor wheels under $60.00 with an EXDUCER larger than 60mm. Most were in the 40mm to 55mm range and they are ALL cast wheels. Not a single one was billet.

As a matter of fact, I found only one... (Yes, ONE!) BILLET wheel for under $200.00 (Actually, $195.00), which fit a GT3076r (56 mm INDUCER/76 mm EXDUCER). Everything else ranged from $220.00 to $400.00. So where are all these wonderful "$20.00 to $60.00" compressor wheels you seem to have located? Sure they're out there, but they're about the size of a bottle cap. (Okay, THAT is an exaggeration...) I DARE YOU to find a single billet wheel that would be sized for a diesel truck turbo that sells for less than $100.00. Heck, you'd be hard pressed to find an appropriately sized cast wheel for less than $100.00

We've provided factual performance data regarding the comparison between a stock compressor wheel and a billet replacement wheel that CLEARLY showed performance improvements. Not just 4 or 5 HP, but nearly 35 HP gains over just a simple 40 HP tune. Stage 1 injectors gain approximately 60 HP and cost around $1200.00, so you're looking at around $20.00 per HP. Compare that to the WWG2 at $229.00, that's about $6.50 per HP. Seems like a pretty good deal to me... But that's my opinion.

Seriously, why don't you take your apples and your oranges and go and troll somewhere else. :blah: :blah: :blah:


We now return everyone to their regularly scheduled program. LOL
thirty years of doing something should tell you that a turbo does not care what fuel, gas or diesel is spinning the turbo. You don't need a special turbo to run for diesel fuel... A t4 exhaust housing is the same for gas and diesel. Unless your a vendor and trying to say buy this diesel rated $2500 renamed Borgwarner turbo.

If you really had an idea what your saying and talking about and instead you could of been sharp and said try finding one that is ment for spinning the right way. Borgwarner and most garrett are the reverse rotation compared to the 7.3 But why would you know that. There is plenty of 20-60 wheels., ever heard of bullseye turbo?? I picked up a replacement 62/88 s300 wheel for 20 bucks off there ebay site last month.
 
#20 ·
Back story on the F350 that was tested, the truck has lived it's life as a commercial vehicle. As admitted by the owner, the maintenance on the truck has not only been neglected, but flat out forgotten on multiple intervals. For the OEM wheel to be in poor condition should not come as a surprise.

I personally drove the truck before and after the wheel was installed and I can tell you that there was a marginal difference beyond just a 40 hp tune.

The WWG2 is a solid product that has noticeable performance gains without any faults that I have heard of or personally noticed. If you have doubts of this, just purchase the wheel and try it on your own vehicle. I am very interested to hear what faults can be found by someone searching for them.




Sent from my iPhone using AutoGuide.com Free App
 
#25 ·
Some of these knuckle head need to understand too that each dyno reads differently. Like you stated, your numbers will be what...10% higher on an inertia dyno compared to a load based dyno. And even then the correction values used from tuner to tuner varies etc.
Keep up the good work Bill and don't let the bone heads discourage you!
 
#27 ·
Bill, I think 99.9% are ejoying you sharing your results with us. As for 444-D, I've seen him on these diesel forums for 10 yrs or so (24/7/365) and I never remember even one constructive or positive post. Don't hold it against him though, I think he must have been severely brow beat as a child.
 
#28 ·
And something else I'd like to add. I've never had my truck on a dyno, but I have had my Subaru's on many of them (all AWD). And many different types, hub, inertia, and load. They all read quite different. On the hub dyno my car made right at 560whp. Then on the inertia roller, I made just over 530whp. Then on two different load Dyno's I made right at 505whp on one and 512whp on the other. In each situation I had the same tuner and all times the same basic temp conditions. Point being, that HP numbers will vary greatly from one dyno to the next and especially one brand of dyno to the next.
And one other thing, and I think Bill will back me here, you have to take boost numbers for what they are on the dyno. Boost measured at a given RPM on a dyno is just a measurement for that given dyno on that given day. Everytime my car was dyno tuned, once the tuning was completed on the dyno, we always had to finish up on the street. It would always make more boost and at a lower RPM on the street. Even the best load Dynoes can't replicate real life street conditions. Point being, you can't compare your boost numbers driving up hill on the street at 2100 RPM to that of a truck on the dyno at that same RPM. Even the same truck. The readings will likely be much different.
The moral to the story, look at the graphs, see the gains, and take them for what they are. I personally am impressed with the gain in the curves here. I'd expect to see that curve grow even more as you increase the power levels. Time will tell as additional testing is done.
 
#30 ·
I'm glad for the info, and although I'm new to the 7.3 world, I'm not new at all to dyno testing or of spending time with my vehicles on the rollers. I appreciate the hell out of what you're taking the time to do and pass on to us. Its easy to see an improvement, and I dont put a ton of faith into what the actual peak values are because any dyno can read differently. Its easy to see what the trend is as well as averages and areas below the curve. I hate seeing your helpful thread cluttered with needless attempts to bash or lash out at your efforts, but I guess thats part of the price of being helpful sometimes...:lame:
 
#31 ·
How would max HP graph be relevant? He has already shown graphs indicating HP gains. These gains were achieved with literally nothing on the truck changed besides turbo wheel. If the wheel is not responsible for the improvements then what do you suggest is? Sure other trucks with different setups will produce different power levels and different boost numbers. If you have been reading any of the other threads on this wheel you would most likely better grasp this concept. Maybe someone has stage 1's, upgraded hpop, tunes. More than likely they would also see improvement over a stock wheel, but the actual numbers would be different. I just think it's great to still see new development on this older platform.
 
#32 ·
Did you not see the back story on the test pickup? Bill stated that they only went to 40 tow tune because of a weak hpop and even on 40 it was trying to throw codes. The results he has may not be the exact thing you think he should have showen you for improvement but look at his data and tell be theres not an improvement there and I think everyone can agree your a dumbass. What is it with people on here that just want to complain about the way someone test their product to show you some type of improvement, I mean really if it wasn't for guys like bill testing this stuff and tuning our pickups we wouldnt have a Damn thing.
 
#34 ·
seeing all these negative post are pretty ridiculous. I personally have the ww2 installed on my 2001 f250 7.3 which is mainly stock motorwise other than a ts 6 position chip with gearhead tunes, intake, turbo back straight exhaust, oil rail crossover, 3/8" fuel lines, and non ebpv housing. Comparing a stock wheel to the new ww2 is like comparing two completely different animals. Hell even comparing the ww2 to the original ww is comparing two completely different animals. The ww2 is by far a GREAT upgrade to the stock 7.3 turbo. Turbo spools up really quick compared to the stock wheel and the original ww for one, havent experienced any compressor surge at all secondly, and the boost pressures are unreal considering this is a STOCK turbo other than the ww2 and the non ebpv. I have not put truck on a dyno before or after but i can garantee anyone that if i were to that there would be a real noticeable difference. I think the guys who are trying to talk down to the new ww2 just have there feelings hurt because they dont have one. Just my opinion not like it matters but for the ones who just want to smack talk why dont you just keep your negativity to yourselves. I mean seriously nobody wants to hear it. There is a difference in opinions yes but in the end i believe the numbers from all the dyno results prove that this wheel DOES what they have designed the wheel to do.
 
#36 ·
Well this is getting pretty hectic lol does a MOD wanna move these 2 to small talk section it's getting very off point. This is clearly a good product working for people if someone doesn't like it they should pm the owner of dieselsite or pm php themselves. Not destroy this thread.
 
#37 ·
But when it come down to it who really cares. I Just found it funny how some one would spend the time testing on 40 with a 6 month old hpop with factory injectors and post the results. And not post the results with the chip on full until asked, where you said the hpop couldn't keep up...
Also found it funny how that other guy joined just to post about the truck.
 
#38 ·
Since you find everything "funny", maybe you'll laugh when the product does exactly what we say it will for everyone who actually TRIES it.

We have a good reputation of not ripping people off. We test the living daylights out of product before even "beta" testers get to see it in most cases. As more people post results, the folks that really want answers will get what they are looking for.

I'm sorry Bill had to take such crap for spending the enormous amount of time he put into this. I know most appreciate it. I certainly do.

Bob
 
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