Ok - in your best Professor Farnsworth impersonation (Futurama, in case you had to ask) -
Good News, Everyone -
Jody has been working with us to help with the problem of smoking and W85.
Through the shared experiences of many people on the alternative fuels forum and Jody's magic - the problem is largely solved.
My own experiences with W85 were smoke free performance for the first day or two, then progressively worse smoking to the point I was waiting for the EPA to send agents to my house. I added RUG a gallon at a time with no help. I filled it up with D2 and the smoke continued. I was convinced I had killed my truck.
For a little personal anger management, I did a full throttle acceleration as therapy. The truck quit smoking. Over the next few days of running W85 - the smoke was back. One more WOT run - cleared again. My theory was that the W85 was burning slower and coating the inside of my exhaust manifolds and turbo. Running up the temperature burned off the residue and I was smoke free until the residue built up.
Armed with this, I spoke with a few W85 founding fathers. Chris (rsr911) mentioned he advanced his timing on his IDI which helped with the smoking. We consulted with Jody and he built us several experimental tunes to do this to our PSDs.
After a month of testing - here's where we are at. My trucks smoking is down about 95%. I smoke a lot less than the Dodge boys. :ford: I can idle the truck at the bank drive through without worrying about killing the other customers. I had a motorcycle follow me for 40 miles last Sunday. I consider this a huge success.
In full disclosure - my truck will begin to smoke minimally after a week or so on W85. NOTHING like before, but still a slight haze. One heavy acceleration and it clears up. The exhaust still isn't as pleasant smelling as someone running used french fry oil, but that's a small price to pay considering the fuel savings.
Jody announced today the W85 tunes are ready to be released. I have been running the W85-60 econo. I have pulled with the W85-80 tow with minimally increased smoking on heavy throttle. I personally am going to use the W85-60 tow just for the decreased fueling strategy. My EGTs are running about 50 degrees below D2.
I am very excited about this. I was just about ready to throw in the towel with W85 due to the smell and smoke. Now I'm in it for good.
I cant' help but wonder what is going on in the combustion chamber, mainly at the piston rings if you have that much smoke coming out after only a couple days... hrmmmm.
As the OP said I think most of the issue is with left over oil coating the manifolds and such.
Chelsea's X has my 38R on it, which still leaks past the internal O rings... If it idles for more then 5-10 minutes it will smoke blue until it burns it out of the exhaust... But if you were running oil full time I can only imagine what the valves, exhaust ports, manifolds and such look like.
Do you mean to say that the burn charactersistics of W85 are NOT the same as D2? Wow... Who woulda thunk it... I would also recommend this light reading on the affects of timing in a PSD...
I think I will stick with an alternative fuel that doesn't kill my neighbors with carcinogens, has complete combustion, zero sum emissions, does not coke my engine, and ohh it smells good too...
But I guess making fuel concoctions that produce carcinogens for your family to breathe, cokes your engine, and requires advanced timing to smoke "less" is really appealing to some... To each their own...
I think I will stick with an alternative fuel that doesn't kill my neighbors with carcinogens, has complete combustion, zero sum emissions, does not coke my engine, and ohh it smells good too...
But I guess making fuel concoctions that produce carcinogens for your family to breathe, cokes your engine, and requires advanced timing to smoke "less" is really appealing to some... To each their own...
Gee Sam - after biofuels took off, corn prices went through the roof. Corn, being a major food in impoverished countries became less affordable. Hundreds of thousands of children go to bed hungry as a result. Guess you're proud of that, aren't you.
Also, petroleum didn't magically appear in the ground. It is the remains of carbon based life (plants/animals) that was processed over a slightly longer period of time than your veggie oil. So its net carbon neutral as well - just over a longer period of time.
The major injector rebuilders all state that burning veggie oils is the most destructive fuel they see as far as coking and other damage. While W85 is not as extensively tested, all the early results show engines to be unharmed in any way. Like RSR911 stated, advancing the timing to accommodate the burn characteristics of this fuel is all we are doing. Are you suggesting nothing needed to be done to your vehicle to accommodate the burn characteristics of your fuel? Can you say "Vegistroker kit".
Off course they aren't and neither are the burn characteristics of WVO. As for the thread about timing, are you that dense? We are optimizing for the FUEL we run, not advancing timing for more power to levels that will crack the block. It's about the same as adjusting timing in a gasser depending upon what octane you run. As for carcinigens etc. it would be nice if there was enough renewable fuel to cover the vast needs of the world but there isn't, last I checked using all the arable farmland in the world still wouldn't produce enough biofuel.
My engine smokes the same or less then any IDI I've seen. It is NOT coked up and neither is my old 6.9 which is torn apart right now, want pictures? In fact only the two cylinders affected by a blow head gasket show any form of build up.
Is it your entire purpose in life to bash anyone who runs anything other than WVO? Getting old dude, grow up, you're not right about everything, in fact you're wrong more than you would ever believe. Probably think Obama is doing a good job......
Your funny... So because I don't think random fuel concoctions are a good thing - I support Obama... Ever heard of a red herring?
So to your point - please show me where I said anything that wasn't FACTUALLY correct? I was not commenting on your "experience" I was responding to the point of this thread. The Original Poster believes his fuel choice is coking his engine and his solution was to increase timing... First - if someone believes their fuel is coking their engine - doesn't that make you wonder if you should be running it? Second - the affects of advancing timing in a POWERSTROKE have been WELL documented. Advancing timing in a powerstroke is NOT the same as advancing timing in a gasser. Ohh and if you read that thread you would see that a fair number of the cracked blocks attributed to timing were NOT at big power levels. It was the affect of timing in the powerstroke - not the power levels...
WVO does have the same burn characteristics as D2 - when properly heated. There are all kinds of scientific studies that PROVE that. Not your butt meter BS results.
I know you are in love with W85 and do not care about the environmental impact. That is fine - that is your PERSONAL choice. But don't expect me to sit back and not point out the FACTS in a public forum.
Gee Sam - after biofuels took off, corn prices went through the roof. Corn, being a major food in impoverished countries became less affordable. Hundreds of thousands of children go to bed hungry as a result. Guess you're proud of that, aren't you.
Also, petroleum didn't magically appear in the ground. It is the remains of carbon based life (plants/animals) that was processed over a slightly longer period of time than your veggie oil. So its net carbon neutral as well - just over a longer period of time.
The major injector rebuilders all state that burning veggie oils is the most destructive fuel they see as far as coking and other damage. While W85 is not as extensively tested, all the early results show engines to be unharmed in any way. Like RSR911 stated, advancing the timing to accommodate the burn characteristics of this fuel is all we are doing. Are you suggesting nothing needed to be done to your vehicle to accommodate the burn characteristics of your fuel? Can you say "Vegistroker kit".
I think corn based ethanol is a crock of sh!t simply to prop up food prices (farmers) in the US. Which has nothing to do with waste vegetable oil... And if you can't see the difference to directly pumping carcinogens into YOUR family and neighborhood... Well nothing I am going to say will matter... So back to the point of the thread...
Please show me where the major injector rebuilders all state that burning veggie oil is the most destructive fuel? I understand and have seen the affects of poorly heated vegetable oil in diesel engines (in person and on the internet) - of all kinds. The problem is in the lack of heat in the system - not the fuel choice.
The only modification needed to properly run vegetable oil in most diesel engines is heat for the fuel. If the vegetable oil is properly heated, it has the SAME burn characteristics (penetration, burn rate, flow, etc) as D2 - that is a scientific fact.
Again W85 is your choice, which is your right to choose. But advancing timing in a powerstroke to help with your engine coking due to your fuel choice... Well that is, in my opinion, like trying to put out a fire by pissing into the wind...
Angry, angry man. I don't recall using the word coking in my initial post. I do recall hypothesizing about oily residue on the exhaust manifolds and turbo.
I doubt you will agree to this either, but Ryan Casserly is one of the leading, if not THE leading injector guy in the U.S. - as per his website:
All cores charges refunded by issuing a check to the customer, with the exception of rusted or coked cores. Coked cores are the result of vegetable oil.
Now - I completely agree with you about heating vegetable oil to get it to have the same characteristics as D2. To be honest with you, I'd probably rather run veggie oil - its just not available in my neck of the woods. I am doing everything I can to get my W85 to run as clean as humanly possible. I currently have it cleaner than a Dodge. When I get it as clean as a Prius, I'll let you know...
I would correct Casserly to saying that improper combustion (low temperature) of fuel causes coking - which is most often attributed to poor heat in vegetable oil systems. Running vegetable oil correctly does not coke your injectors, engine, exhaust manifolds, turbo, etc. But I understand he is in the business of selling injectors not educating the people doing it wrong (I don't fault him for that).
I apologize for referencing coking as opposed to "coating the inside of my exhaust manifolds and turbo." I really think that is tomato/tomata... Same same...
Can you find anyone who thinks it is a good idea to increase timing in a powerstroke to prevent your fuel from "coating the inside of your exhaust manifolds and turbo?" Other than rsr who can't see anything wrong with his fuel choice?
What you're running in it makes a difference. D1 requires less timing advance than D2. That's one reason D1 clatters so much. W85 in a D2 timed vehicle is as quiet as a gasser. With the W85 tune, sounds like a diesel again. That's like saying increased 15:1 compression is 15:1 compression whether you're running gasoline or diesel. In these modern gassers, both ignition and cam timing are advanced or retarded to optimize the fuel de jour. Run E85 and it changes over pure RUG. Anyway - we're only talking about advancing 3-4° of timing over stock. Better yet - it works.
W85 appears to have a slower burn rate than d2, advancing the timing merely puts peak cylinder pressure back at the crank angle it should be. It is not the same as trying to develop peak cylinder pressure early in the search for more power. That is all for now.
Sam, while I agree that burning vegetable oil is superior in many ways to burning waste motor oil, and most importantly the odor of WMO is quite offensive; however, there are other ways to efficiently burn vegetable oil in a diesel engine, biodiesel being one, and blending gasoline with WVO is another.
However, instead of filibustering your point, you might find that black diesel is here to stay and will not go away no matter how loud you and others get on experimental fuels forums. I believe it is better to encourage people to develop best practices of burning black diesel, because in doing so, it will be burned more efficiently, and therefore less pollution will be produced.
Jeffrey - I would agree that there are other ways of burning Veggie in a diesel... But that isn't the point of this thread.
The point of this thread is a poorly combusting concoction that is being hypothesized to "coating the inside of my (Original poster) exhaust manifolds and turbo." And then the "solution" to fuggin up his engine is to increase timing in his powerstroke. So I can either sit back and laugh...
Or I could caution the other 63 people reading this in a public forum that the "solution" to the crappy concotion he is running is likely to blow up his engine.
So to the original poster - do you really think that adjusting your timing is going to solve the spray pattern, penetration, etc of your concoction in the combustion chamber?
Well - you heard it here first, folks. Any changes to your timing over what Ford decided the International engine should have will blow up your powerstroke - no matter what fuel you use. AND, vegetable oil is the only fuel you should be running - all others are cause cancer and hair loss. Rudolph Diesel would be so proud that his engine was so limited as to what it could run on!
A good tune has no more then 30-40* MAX timing at any point in the map, above that and you have issues... If you would like I will post the maps of a particular tuner showing well over 50* of timing...
Yes it is interesting that Joe decides to post in alternative fuels when he does not even run them. Just ignore the guy that has no idea what he is posting about and just has a vindictive towards me. Keep running your W85 and enjoying the new W85 tunes. I just have to laugh at what he posts and wonder how he even knows how to tie his shoes. I was asked to create the tunes for W85 and he must post anything negative he can towards any advancements my company makes in helping our customers. This just shows the kind of person he really is.
And RT has three college degrees and 30+ years of scientific research background in biomechanical engineering. So I'm not just some tinfoil hat yahoo just guessing at stuff.
Coking refers to a solid carbonaceous residue. No one that has run W85 and has had there engine open has reported finding and solid residues to my knowledge. I have seen pictures of the solid residue left over from improperly burned WVO.
Following the scientific method - I made an observation. I theorized as to the possible causes of my observation. I formulated a hypothesis. I designed an experiment to test that hypothesis. With Jody's assistance, the test was performed. The results support my hypothesis. Now, with the assistance of other PSD owners who are running W85 and the new tunes, we will increase the statistical significance of those results.
Sam - while you say masking they symptoms, I say optimizing the parameters for the fuel in question. I get that you don't like playing with your timing. I get you don't like anyone doing anything that you don't personally approve of. I simply posted this as a way of helping the rest of us. Sorry that so deeply offended you.
I repeatedly see a certain person post that W85 has poor combustion, penetration etc. yet I get BETTER fuel economy running it over thousands of miles, not much but still better. I attribute this to the higher btu/gal value of W85 vs. D2. Poor combustion would result in reduced fuel economy. The argument just doesn't hold water against my real world testing. I also fail to see how making minor adjustments to an engine to optimize it for the fuel being used is any worse than installing a twin tank system and heating the fuel to make it work. In fact one could argue I suppose that during the time it takes to heat the oil up to operating temp the engine is undergoing increased wear because it takes longer to warm up the engine. I have taken apart two IDI engines that had W85 run in them and in both cases they were exceptionally clean inside for the miles on them. The second engine had a bad head gasket and it does show some carbon build up around the two affected cylinders but other than that it's in great shape.
i have one of your old f5 chips(manuel knob)
how much are each file ??
im running w85 and have had white smoke issues
and other times it pulls like a freight train
david
ps.i allways been a dp lover,since tds days
jody and diane ftw
Dave - with the F5, you have to send your chip back in. I think Jody charges about $45 for a new tune. He doesn't have the alternative fuel tunes on the pull down menu, so I think you have to contact them directly. I'm still really impressed with the new tune.
Update - I've got over two months on this tune and traveled about 2500 miles. Smoking is observed only with hard acceleration. EGT's are about 50° below my diesel temps. My truck was due for its inspection this month - passed with flying colors running W85. I'm still thoroughly impressed with Jody's work.
I love this thread, except for the 2 guys with little willies who cant shut up. Lots of good info, Im going to be running W85 soon also, Jody, you will be getting a call!
i just had a 2005 pacifica rebuilt due to heavy oil usage at only fifty thou on the odometer. Mechanic shop said there was some kind of buildup on the rings like an additive gone wrong. True or false i dont know but seems like that would carry over to the w85 world. Meaning the rings would be a place where it would show signs of trouble. If jody tweaked the tunes , i can see how it would be kin to running 87 octane vs 104. As long as you get full or close to full combustion within the appropriate area it should be fine. I am sure fuel injector life would show sooner vs later as well, heck the extra oil content might help with life span.
As for dp tuner, i read a new post were a new truck throws a rod, and think omg another,
Then ya find out someone puts 3k worth of injectors in and doesnt sped 5.95 to ship a chip back for a reburn.....:doh: and then there is thuggys truck running strong for years and just got stronger. Jody has lots of innovative tunes, decel, drive though, w85 etc. Keep up the good work
Keep up the good work.
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