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Which wastegate actuator is better for the 7.3?

77K views 29 replies 17 participants last post by  Pocket 
#1 ·
Ok i have been searching around and have been reading info on different companys that make aftermarket wastegate actuators, and i think i found the one i like the most... The Banks Big Head, but idk if its the best or if it will work well on my 7.3?
 
#2 ·
The Banks works fine, but it's probably the most expensive one out there that fits the stock turbo.

Turbomaster makes one that's cheaper, but works every bit as good as the Banks. The difference is that it's a little tougher to install, but infinitely easier to adjust once it's bolted up.
 
#3 ·
I like the turbomaster wastegate actuator from Dieselsite. You only have to fight it once to install it, then adjustment is so much easier than with the stock or Banks type actuators.
 
#5 ·
Turbomaster for sure!
 
#6 ·
turbomaster here too!!
 
#7 ·
I found the turbomaster to be one of the best mods that I have added.
 
#9 ·
Yep, notch up another one for the TM from me also:D
 
#10 ·
Am I missing something here I am running a stock WG and I have no problem hitting 27+psi of boost. Then my SES light comes on. I dont have a boost fooler.
 
#12 ·
The spring inside the stock wastegate actuator is a bit weaker than some of the aftermarket ones. That spring can also break, I know from first hand experience on that one.

You can tighten the stock actuator and it will function more like an aftermarket one. Of course, that's assuming that it's still working like it should.

Mine broke a few years back. When I pulled it off the turbo the rod was flapping around all over the place.
 
#13 ·
Does anybody here really know what the waste gate does?? I chuckle every time I read one of these posts...

There's no comparison between a larger actuator and a "Turbomaster". They operate on two different principles (one correct and one not...).

The waste gate doesn't just limit boost pressure based on what the engine "needs" (although it can be used for that), it protects the turbo from over-speeding. Since pressure and compressor speed are directly related, the way to prevent over speed is to limit boost pressure to the "max" that the turbo can handle efficiently (with regard to the turbo's map). In the case of a 38R, that's about 40psi.

The "Turbomaster" is simply holding the wastegate shut, and not allowing it to open until the exhaust pressure against the gate opens it. That's got nothing to do with protecting the turbo, and is not the right way to control it.

A "real" waste gate actuator holds the gate shut until the boost pressure reaches the preset level. When boost reaches that max. level (and the turbo is theoretically at it's max "safe", or design, speed) the gate opens a bit to relive or bypass exhaust around the turbine, causing it to slow down, thus reducing / holding the boost at that level.

A problem that arises occasionally is "blow-open" of the gate by the exhaust pressure itself. That's where a larger actuator is effective. With a larger diaphragm and a stiffer spring, it holds the gate shut tighter, not allowing the exhaust to blow it open. It still opens at the correct pressure to protect the turbo.

So, rather than believing the Turbomaster advertising BS that is on Dieselsite's site, learn what a wastegate does, then make it work right.

To answer the OP's question: I'd use the BBBBB...Banks (GOD, I hate to say that!) actuator, since it allows the turbo and waste gate to work together the way they should.
 
#14 ·
Does anybody here really know what the waste gate does??
After reading your post, obviously you don't know how the stock setup works either, or that other configurations exist too.

The "Turbomaster" is simply holding the wastegate shut, and not allowing it to open until the exhaust pressure against the gate opens it. That's got nothing to do with protecting the turbo, and is not the right way to control it.
Why not? The wastegate still opens, and the TurboMaster can be adjusted to open at any drive pressure you set it at. Once the wastegate is opened, the exact same outcome is achieved. After all, you are trying to limit drive pressure and reduce shaft speed (which is what happens when the wastegate opens up, regardless of how it was opened). So basing how the wastegate opens by relying entirely on drive pressure would technically also be a correct method.

A "real" waste gate actuator holds the gate shut until the boost pressure reaches the preset level. When boost reaches that max. level (and the turbo is theoretically at it's max "safe", or design, speed) the gate opens a bit to relive or bypass exhaust around the turbine, causing it to slow down, thus reducing / holding the boost at that level.
The problem with the stock setup is that the PCM is set to start opening the wastegate at a very low boost pressure (something like 5-7 psi). It sends a signal to the wastegate solenoid to direct boost pressure from the intake spyder to the wastegate actuator. By installing a TurboMaster, you bypass the wastegate solenoid sending pressure to the actuator. The TurboMaster can be set to open up at just about any drive pressure, including lower pressures if you are very concerned about keeping the turbo from "over-speeding". The benefit is that you don't have a wastegate that opens at super low pressures and bleeding off too early. So you end up getting more boost down low, but you still have a functional wastegate on the upper end where it is needed the most. Instead of relying on boost pressure to open the wastegate, you use drive pressure. Both are perfectly acceptable methods to open the wastegate.

At any rate, even if you install a Banks Big Head, you are still doing the exact same thing as the TurboMaster. You have a stronger spring, which relies more and more on exhaust backpressure to force the wastegate open, and less and less on the boost pressure that is redirected from the solenoid.

In the end, both accomplish the exact same thing. Simply put, they allow the wastegate to open. Once the wastegate is opened, it's working, regardless of how it was opened in the first place.

Not all turbo wastegates are controlled the same way as it is done on the PSD. In some trucks (medium and heavy duty), the wastegate is controlled by an actuator similar to the TurboMaster. On others, it's controlled electronically. So really, what is the "correct" way?
 
#15 ·
After reading your post, obviously you don't know how the stock setup works either, or that other configurations exist too.
I understand fully how the stock system operates. While there are individuals who have come up with other configurations, that doesn't mean they are technically sound.
The wastegate still opens, and the TurboMaster can be adjusted to open at any drive pressure you set it at. Once the wastegate is opened, the exact same outcome is achieved. After all, you are trying to limit drive pressure and reduce shaft speed (which is what happens when the wastegate opens up, regardless of how it was opened). So basing how the wastegate opens by relying entirely on drive pressure would technically also be a correct method.
Yes, the waste gate still opens. But applying a correlation between drive pressure and boost pressure is not reliable. If using drive pressure to control the gate was the best way to do it, woundn't the manufacturer have done it that way in the first place? Boost pressure on the compressor is the limiting factor on ANY turbo, not drive pressure.
The problem with the stock setup is that the PCM is set to start opening the wastegate at a very low boost pressure (something like 5-7 psi). It sends a signal to the wastegate solenoid to direct boost pressure from the intake spyder to the wastegate actuator. By installing a TurboMaster, you bypass the wastegate solenoid sending pressure to the actuator. The TurboMaster can be set to open up at just about any drive pressure, including lower pressures if you are very concerned about keeping the turbo from "over-speeding". The benefit is that you don't have a wastegate that opens at super low pressures and bleeding off too early. So you end up getting more boost down low, but you still have a functional wastegate on the upper end where it is needed the most. Instead of relying on boost pressure to open the wastegate, you use drive pressure. Both are perfectly acceptable methods to open the wastegate.
I agree that the stock system is very lacking. Actually, the stock waste gate solenoid is "normally" sending the boost signal to the actuator. The PCM command redirects the boost signal (dumps it) to the intake.

The way to make the system work effectively with a BBH actuator is to route the boost signal from the intake spider directly to the actuator, thus bypassing the solenoid. Again, you aren't concerned with drive pressure and overspeeding. An overspeed condition WILL result in an over pressure condition on the compressor. Therefore, to limit pressure you need to limit speed...it has nothing to do with drive pressure.
At any rate, even if you install a Banks Big Head, you are still doing the exact same thing as the TurboMaster. You have a stronger spring, which relies more and more on exhaust backpressure to force the wastegate open, and less and less on the boost pressure that is redirected from the solenoid.
WRONG! The BBH is designed to hold the gate closed with higher drive pressures. Thats the whole idea. It's not "relying" on drive pressure to open it, it's holding closed against the increased drive pressure UNTIL the signal on the diaphragm is great enough to open it. The Turbomaster is just a joke!
In the end, both accomplish the exact same thing. Simply put, they allow the wastegate to open. Once the wastegate is opened, it's working, regardless of how it was opened in the first place.
Well...yes and no. Yes, they both hold the waste gate shut until a set condition tells it to open. It's a matter of which condition you want to open it. Turbo manufacturers say max boost pressure/compressor speed is the correct condition. Turbomaster sells crap to people who don't know any better.
Not all turbo wastegates are controlled the same way as it is done on the PSD. In some trucks (medium and heavy duty), the wastegate is controlled by an actuator similar to the TurboMaster. On others, it's controlled electronically. So really, what is the "correct" way?
Again, I say: WRONG. Name one engine manufacturer that relies on exhaust back pressure/drive pressure to control their turbo.

The fact is, they all use boost pressure to control/limit/protect the turbo. While some may measure exhaust pressure as part of their control strategy through their ECM's/PCM's, there are no engines which use anything like a "Turbomaster" to control the waste gate. If you're old enough to remember, almost all old diesel engines didn't use a waste gate at all. They had "floating" turbos which were simply sized large enough so as to never be in an over-boosted condition. The van turbo is an example of this. Many engines still use that method.

The correct way to do it is the way Garrett, Holset, Switzer, Mitsubishi, Yanmar, Volvo, Perkins, Cat, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, MAN, Cooper-Bessemer... (I missed a few, I'm sure) all do it: By measuring boost, and limiting the turbo(s) accordingly.

In the end, the "Turbomaster" is a product that is marketed to people who don't understand how the waste gate system is supposed to work. It's a simple design, yes...but it's theory of operation is flawed.

Barnum said it best: There's a sucker born every minute...LOL

Nuff said...Have a great day!
:ford:
 
#16 ·
Drive pressure and boost pressure go hand and hand with the individual turbo.

For example, take the stock setup that is used on the PSD. Now swap the turbo for a 38R. The stock PCM configuration is no longer valid for the new turbo. Why? Because the original turbo has (for argument's sake) a maximum capability of 25 psi. The 38R can handle 40 psi. So in reality, relying on boost pressure to control the wastegate with the exact same system doesn't make sense. Because in the limited function of the PCM, it doesn't know that the new turbo is capable of nearly double the boost. It's still going to try and open the wastegate at extremely low boost pressures, and it's going to try to have the wastegate wide open at say 20 psi of boost, when that's not a realistic number for the 38R. So in that sence, the stock wastegate actuator configuration is not the correct way to do it.

To make my point again, drive pressure and boost pressure are directly related to each individual turbo.

As boost pressure rises, so does drive pressure. A turbo has a map that shows the efficiency range of the turbo on the compressor side. However, there is also an efficiencey range on the turbine side too. There is nothing wrong with a wastegate actuator that relies on exhaust pressures to monitor when to open or shut the wastegate. The TurboMaster is just a very simplified way of doing it.

There is no magical or mystical way to open the wastegate. It's simply a door. It opens, it closes, it opens, it closes. When it opens, it only has one function.

So you have to ask yourself, does the TurboMaster allow the wastegate to open at a pre-set level? Yes it does. So what's the argument here? You don't have a leg to stand on. The wastegate opens, it functions, it does the job it's supposed to. End of story.
 
#20 ·
There is no magical or mystical way to open the wastegate. It's simply a door. It opens, it closes, it opens, it closes. When it opens, it only has one function.


Mild injectored truck with a little nitrous and the 38r with the gated 1.0 ehxaust housing. Intall turbo master(don't know if you can), what do you think it's going to do when you hit the nitrous but you set the turbo master w/o using the nitrous?:poke:



BTW....I HATE internal gates. Anyone know what Tial gates use for reference.:ford:
 
#17 ·
WRONG! The BBH is designed to hold the gate closed with higher drive pressures. Thats the whole idea. It's not "relying" on drive pressure to open it, it's holding closed against the increased drive pressure UNTIL the signal on the diaphragm is great enough to open it. The Turbomaster is just a joke!
Actually, you're wrong. The BBH does rely on drive pressures as well as boost pressures to open the wastegate. It's a hybrid setup. Same goes for the stock actuator. Don't believe me? Unplug the red line to the actuator. The wastgate still opens. There is nothing but spring tension that keeps the wastegate closed. Both TurboMaster and BBH have springs and use spring tension to hold the wastegate closed. There is no mechanism built in to either actuators that actually "locks" the wastegate shut against exhaust backpressure. They are both adjusted by lengthening or shortening the rod to increase or decrease spring tension. In other words, they work nearly identical.

If using drive pressure to control the gate was the best way to do it, woundn't the manufacturer have done it that way in the first place? Boost pressure on the compressor is the limiting factor on ANY turbo, not drive pressure.
Drive pressure will have a much greater effect on longevity than boost pressure. Once a turbo reaches the end of the map on boost pressure, it's just superheating the air. It's still making more boost, but the temperature of the air being compressed rises at an increased rate. This depends on compressor design, wheel design, etc. Drive pressures at higher boost levels can easy be DOUBLE the boost pressure, and you can reliably track what the drive pressures will be based on a certain boost pressure. So in a case like that, where is most of the damage going to come from? The side of the turbo that's pushing say 40 lbs of boost, or the side of the turbo that is seeing 80 lbs or more of backpressure?

However, boost pressure is easier to monitor, that's why most manufacturers use boost pressure to help control the wastegate actuator. The Powerstrokes already have a built in system to monitor exhaust backpressure. How many people have to keep that stupid tube clean so that the sensor can work properly? Can you see now how monitoring boost is easier? No soot. The problem is that boost can vary based on something as simple as altitude, so no, it's not a perfect system either.

Let's go into this a bit further....

There are different ways you can configure the wastegate actuator. You can have it function based 100% off boost pressure, 100% off drive pressure, or a combination of both. The stock actuator on the PSD as well as the BBH is a combination of both systems, or a hybrid. It uses both boost pressure as well as exhaust pressure to open the wastegate. Consider it as a failsafe system. If something doesn't work, the wastegate still opens anyways. The TurboMaster version uses 100% exhaust backpressure to open the wastegate.

The turbo itself doesn't know and doesn't care how the actuator works, just as long as the wastegate opens at a pre-set level that prevents damage. Again, the wastegate is simply a door, it opens, so whatever sits on top of the turbo that helps to open or shut that door makes no difference whatsoever. The turbo can't tell.

Your actual boost numbers can vary even on the same turbo. Altitude plays a very important roll in this. Just on my truck, I can gain 5-6 psi of additional boost just by dropping 6000 ft. There are other factors that can change boost, for example, swapping out the compressor wheel, changing the compressor housing, etc. Many PSD owners do these types of mods, so naturally, keeping the exact same wastegate control can actually hurt performance on a modified system, or even when the truck is at a different altitude.

The same goes for the turbine side. Different exhaust housings will change the drive pressures that the turbo see's. You already mentioned this earlier, that older turbos had larger compressor housings and didn't necessarily need a wastegate. True, larger compressor housings reduce that exhaust backpressure, negating the need for a wastegate. However, many of those older engines didn't have intercooling either. That makes a big difference in turbo lag, making it easier to run larger turbine housings. Compare the OBS PSD's to the newer 7.3L PSD's. The OBS trucks don't have an intercooler in stock form, but have a larger non-wastegated turbine housing.

Wastegate actuators can be designed to be as simple or as complicated as you want. Here's an idea, if you want 100% total control of a wastegate, design an electronic motorized actuator that "locks" the wastegate shut, and will not open it unless commanded by the PCM. No springs, no tension to keep it shut. In this way, there is zero chance of the exhaust pressure opening the wastegate too early or too late. You have full electronic control over the wastegate. Now, when do you want it to open? Do you want to base it off of boost pressure? How about drive pressure? How about turbo RPM's? The design can go on and on, and you can make it as complicated as you want.

In the end, the TurboMaster is very simplistic in design, but it does work. It will not harm your turbo unless you improperly adjust it, and run the turbo beyond it's designed limits. The same can be said for the stock actuator and/or the Banks Big Head. Improper adjustments can allow you to still run the turbo beyond what it was designed for. Both setups are subject to the same amount of human error with installation and adjustment. The TurboMaster is just simpler and quicker to adjust when compared to the BBH or the stock actuator, and it's cheaper than the BBH. That's what makes it so popular with many people on this and other forums. There are tons of people using the TurboMaster without problems. Don't bash a product that for all practical reasons, works nearly identical to the stock system or the BBH, and accomplishes the exact same thing.
 
#23 ·
Actually, you're wrong. The BBH does rely on drive pressures as well as boost pressures to open the wastegate. It's a hybrid setup. Same goes for the stock actuator. Don't believe me? Unplug the red line to the actuator. The wastgate still opens. There is nothing but spring tension that keeps the wastegate closed. Both TurboMaster and BBH have springs and use spring tension to hold the wastegate closed. There is no mechanism built in to either actuators that actually "locks" the wastegate shut against exhaust backpressure. They are both adjusted by lengthening or shortening the rod to increase or decrease spring tension. In other words, they work nearly identical.


Drive pressure will have a much greater effect on longevity than boost pressure. Once a turbo reaches the end of the map on boost pressure, it's just superheating the air. It's still making more boost, but the temperature of the air being compressed rises at an increased rate. This depends on compressor design, wheel design, etc. Drive pressures at higher boost levels can easy be DOUBLE the boost pressure, and you can reliably track what the drive pressures will be based on a certain boost pressure. So in a case like that, where is most of the damage going to come from? The side of the turbo that's pushing say 40 lbs of boost, or the side of the turbo that is seeing 80 lbs or more of backpressure?

However, boost pressure is easier to monitor, that's why most manufacturers use boost pressure to help control the wastegate actuator. The Powerstrokes already have a built in system to monitor exhaust backpressure. How many people have to keep that stupid tube clean so that the sensor can work properly? Can you see now how monitoring boost is easier? No soot. The problem is that boost can vary based on something as simple as altitude, so no, it's not a perfect system either.

Let's go into this a bit further....

There are different ways you can configure the wastegate actuator. You can have it function based 100% off boost pressure, 100% off drive pressure, or a combination of both. The stock actuator on the PSD as well as the BBH is a combination of both systems, or a hybrid. It uses both boost pressure as well as exhaust pressure to open the wastegate. Consider it as a failsafe system. If something doesn't work, the wastegate still opens anyways. The TurboMaster version uses 100% exhaust backpressure to open the wastegate.

The turbo itself doesn't know and doesn't care how the actuator works, just as long as the wastegate opens at a pre-set level that prevents damage. Again, the wastegate is simply a door, it opens, so whatever sits on top of the turbo that helps to open or shut that door makes no difference whatsoever. The turbo can't tell.

Your actual boost numbers can vary even on the same turbo. Altitude plays a very important roll in this. Just on my truck, I can gain 5-6 psi of additional boost just by dropping 6000 ft. There are other factors that can change boost, for example, swapping out the compressor wheel, changing the compressor housing, etc. Many PSD owners do these types of mods, so naturally, keeping the exact same wastegate control can actually hurt performance on a modified system, or even when the truck is at a different altitude.

The same goes for the turbine side. Different exhaust housings will change the drive pressures that the turbo see's. You already mentioned this earlier, that older turbos had larger compressor housings and didn't necessarily need a wastegate. True, larger compressor housings reduce that exhaust backpressure, negating the need for a wastegate. However, many of those older engines didn't have intercooling either. That makes a big difference in turbo lag, making it easier to run larger turbine housings. Compare the OBS PSD's to the newer 7.3L PSD's. The OBS trucks don't have an intercooler in stock form, but have a larger non-wastegated turbine housing.

Wastegate actuators can be designed to be as simple or as complicated as you want. Here's an idea, if you want 100% total control of a wastegate, design an electronic motorized actuator that "locks" the wastegate shut, and will not open it unless commanded by the PCM. No springs, no tension to keep it shut. In this way, there is zero chance of the exhaust pressure opening the wastegate too early or too late. You have full electronic control over the wastegate. Now, when do you want it to open? Do you want to base it off of boost pressure? How about drive pressure? How about turbo RPM's? The design can go on and on, and you can make it as complicated as you want.

In the end, the TurboMaster is very simplistic in design, but it does work. It will not harm your turbo unless you improperly adjust it, and run the turbo beyond it's designed limits. The same can be said for the stock actuator and/or the Banks Big Head. Improper adjustments can allow you to still run the turbo beyond what it was designed for. Both setups are subject to the same amount of human error with installation and adjustment. The TurboMaster is just simpler and quicker to adjust when compared to the BBH or the stock actuator, and it's cheaper than the BBH. That's what makes it so popular with many people on this and other forums. There are tons of people using the TurboMaster without problems. Don't bash a product that for all practical reasons, works nearly identical to the stock system or the BBH, and accomplishes the exact same thing.
:blah::blah::blah::blah::blah:

Uhhhhh....yea, whatever. You keep believing that. That's waaaay to much of explanation/justification for me to even read all the way through, 'specially since you said it was such an uncomplicated thing...

Wait...I know! I'll ask Gail Banks what HE uses for a waste gate reference!:pointlaugh:

Bottom line: I'm sure there are many ways it "could" be done. But there's only one technically CORRECT way...and it aint yours.

:popcorn:
 
#24 ·
What's "surge"?
LOL
 
#22 ·
What's a wastegate???












Don't answer that, I have two PSD's and neither of them even HAVE a wastegate. :D
 
#26 ·
BTW....I HATE internal gates. Anyone know what Tial gates use for reference.
Springs, as well as a port for using the built in actuator diaphram, exactly like the stock wastegate actuators. They they even consider using the actuator diaphram as optional. It's more adjustable if you have an electronic air control valve to actuate the diaphram. Then you can simply adjust on the fly.

They also offer different tension springs for their actuators, instead of an adjustable rod, anywhere from a tension of 3 1/2 psi all the way up to over 23 psi.


;)
 
#30 ·
I think the question was refering to where Tial picks up their reference signal (i.e. boost pressure), not what they reference it against.
I thought I already mentioned it works exactly like the stock actuator.

According to Tial, you MUST use a signal reference to the gate.
That I am missing, because I can't find anything on their site that says you must use a signal reference in order for it to work. They give you a wide variety of spring rates to choose from, so you can dial it in pretty easily that way. However, I would agree that it does allow you more adjustability, especially if you are able to electronically control your reference signal from inside the cab. That would make it easier than the TurboMaster to adjust.

I would also agree that you must use it on any engine with a throttle plate. Have the signal reference set so that the wastegate blows wide open on a pressure spike. Used in conjunction with a blowoff valve, you'll keep pressure spikes to a minimum.
 
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