Ok i have been searching around and have been reading info on different companys that make aftermarket wastegate actuators, and i think i found the one i like the most... The Banks Big Head, but idk if its the best or if it will work well on my 7.3?
After reading your post, obviously you don't know how the stock setup works either, or that other configurations exist too.Does anybody here really know what the waste gate does??
Why not? The wastegate still opens, and the TurboMaster can be adjusted to open at any drive pressure you set it at. Once the wastegate is opened, the exact same outcome is achieved. After all, you are trying to limit drive pressure and reduce shaft speed (which is what happens when the wastegate opens up, regardless of how it was opened). So basing how the wastegate opens by relying entirely on drive pressure would technically also be a correct method.The "Turbomaster" is simply holding the wastegate shut, and not allowing it to open until the exhaust pressure against the gate opens it. That's got nothing to do with protecting the turbo, and is not the right way to control it.
The problem with the stock setup is that the PCM is set to start opening the wastegate at a very low boost pressure (something like 5-7 psi). It sends a signal to the wastegate solenoid to direct boost pressure from the intake spyder to the wastegate actuator. By installing a TurboMaster, you bypass the wastegate solenoid sending pressure to the actuator. The TurboMaster can be set to open up at just about any drive pressure, including lower pressures if you are very concerned about keeping the turbo from "over-speeding". The benefit is that you don't have a wastegate that opens at super low pressures and bleeding off too early. So you end up getting more boost down low, but you still have a functional wastegate on the upper end where it is needed the most. Instead of relying on boost pressure to open the wastegate, you use drive pressure. Both are perfectly acceptable methods to open the wastegate.A "real" waste gate actuator holds the gate shut until the boost pressure reaches the preset level. When boost reaches that max. level (and the turbo is theoretically at it's max "safe", or design, speed) the gate opens a bit to relive or bypass exhaust around the turbine, causing it to slow down, thus reducing / holding the boost at that level.
I understand fully how the stock system operates. While there are individuals who have come up with other configurations, that doesn't mean they are technically sound.After reading your post, obviously you don't know how the stock setup works either, or that other configurations exist too.
Yes, the waste gate still opens. But applying a correlation between drive pressure and boost pressure is not reliable. If using drive pressure to control the gate was the best way to do it, woundn't the manufacturer have done it that way in the first place? Boost pressure on the compressor is the limiting factor on ANY turbo, not drive pressure.The wastegate still opens, and the TurboMaster can be adjusted to open at any drive pressure you set it at. Once the wastegate is opened, the exact same outcome is achieved. After all, you are trying to limit drive pressure and reduce shaft speed (which is what happens when the wastegate opens up, regardless of how it was opened). So basing how the wastegate opens by relying entirely on drive pressure would technically also be a correct method.
I agree that the stock system is very lacking. Actually, the stock waste gate solenoid is "normally" sending the boost signal to the actuator. The PCM command redirects the boost signal (dumps it) to the intake.The problem with the stock setup is that the PCM is set to start opening the wastegate at a very low boost pressure (something like 5-7 psi). It sends a signal to the wastegate solenoid to direct boost pressure from the intake spyder to the wastegate actuator. By installing a TurboMaster, you bypass the wastegate solenoid sending pressure to the actuator. The TurboMaster can be set to open up at just about any drive pressure, including lower pressures if you are very concerned about keeping the turbo from "over-speeding". The benefit is that you don't have a wastegate that opens at super low pressures and bleeding off too early. So you end up getting more boost down low, but you still have a functional wastegate on the upper end where it is needed the most. Instead of relying on boost pressure to open the wastegate, you use drive pressure. Both are perfectly acceptable methods to open the wastegate.
WRONG! The BBH is designed to hold the gate closed with higher drive pressures. Thats the whole idea. It's not "relying" on drive pressure to open it, it's holding closed against the increased drive pressure UNTIL the signal on the diaphragm is great enough to open it. The Turbomaster is just a joke!At any rate, even if you install a Banks Big Head, you are still doing the exact same thing as the TurboMaster. You have a stronger spring, which relies more and more on exhaust backpressure to force the wastegate open, and less and less on the boost pressure that is redirected from the solenoid.
Well...yes and no. Yes, they both hold the waste gate shut until a set condition tells it to open. It's a matter of which condition you want to open it. Turbo manufacturers say max boost pressure/compressor speed is the correct condition. Turbomaster sells crap to people who don't know any better.In the end, both accomplish the exact same thing. Simply put, they allow the wastegate to open. Once the wastegate is opened, it's working, regardless of how it was opened in the first place.
Again, I say: WRONG. Name one engine manufacturer that relies on exhaust back pressure/drive pressure to control their turbo.Not all turbo wastegates are controlled the same way as it is done on the PSD. In some trucks (medium and heavy duty), the wastegate is controlled by an actuator similar to the TurboMaster. On others, it's controlled electronically. So really, what is the "correct" way?
There is no magical or mystical way to open the wastegate. It's simply a door. It opens, it closes, it opens, it closes. When it opens, it only has one function.
Actually, you're wrong. The BBH does rely on drive pressures as well as boost pressures to open the wastegate. It's a hybrid setup. Same goes for the stock actuator. Don't believe me? Unplug the red line to the actuator. The wastgate still opens. There is nothing but spring tension that keeps the wastegate closed. Both TurboMaster and BBH have springs and use spring tension to hold the wastegate closed. There is no mechanism built in to either actuators that actually "locks" the wastegate shut against exhaust backpressure. They are both adjusted by lengthening or shortening the rod to increase or decrease spring tension. In other words, they work nearly identical.WRONG! The BBH is designed to hold the gate closed with higher drive pressures. Thats the whole idea. It's not "relying" on drive pressure to open it, it's holding closed against the increased drive pressure UNTIL the signal on the diaphragm is great enough to open it. The Turbomaster is just a joke!
Drive pressure will have a much greater effect on longevity than boost pressure. Once a turbo reaches the end of the map on boost pressure, it's just superheating the air. It's still making more boost, but the temperature of the air being compressed rises at an increased rate. This depends on compressor design, wheel design, etc. Drive pressures at higher boost levels can easy be DOUBLE the boost pressure, and you can reliably track what the drive pressures will be based on a certain boost pressure. So in a case like that, where is most of the damage going to come from? The side of the turbo that's pushing say 40 lbs of boost, or the side of the turbo that is seeing 80 lbs or more of backpressure?If using drive pressure to control the gate was the best way to do it, woundn't the manufacturer have done it that way in the first place? Boost pressure on the compressor is the limiting factor on ANY turbo, not drive pressure.
:blah::blah::blah::blah::blah:Actually, you're wrong. The BBH does rely on drive pressures as well as boost pressures to open the wastegate. It's a hybrid setup. Same goes for the stock actuator. Don't believe me? Unplug the red line to the actuator. The wastgate still opens. There is nothing but spring tension that keeps the wastegate closed. Both TurboMaster and BBH have springs and use spring tension to hold the wastegate closed. There is no mechanism built in to either actuators that actually "locks" the wastegate shut against exhaust backpressure. They are both adjusted by lengthening or shortening the rod to increase or decrease spring tension. In other words, they work nearly identical.
Drive pressure will have a much greater effect on longevity than boost pressure. Once a turbo reaches the end of the map on boost pressure, it's just superheating the air. It's still making more boost, but the temperature of the air being compressed rises at an increased rate. This depends on compressor design, wheel design, etc. Drive pressures at higher boost levels can easy be DOUBLE the boost pressure, and you can reliably track what the drive pressures will be based on a certain boost pressure. So in a case like that, where is most of the damage going to come from? The side of the turbo that's pushing say 40 lbs of boost, or the side of the turbo that is seeing 80 lbs or more of backpressure?
However, boost pressure is easier to monitor, that's why most manufacturers use boost pressure to help control the wastegate actuator. The Powerstrokes already have a built in system to monitor exhaust backpressure. How many people have to keep that stupid tube clean so that the sensor can work properly? Can you see now how monitoring boost is easier? No soot. The problem is that boost can vary based on something as simple as altitude, so no, it's not a perfect system either.
Let's go into this a bit further....
There are different ways you can configure the wastegate actuator. You can have it function based 100% off boost pressure, 100% off drive pressure, or a combination of both. The stock actuator on the PSD as well as the BBH is a combination of both systems, or a hybrid. It uses both boost pressure as well as exhaust pressure to open the wastegate. Consider it as a failsafe system. If something doesn't work, the wastegate still opens anyways. The TurboMaster version uses 100% exhaust backpressure to open the wastegate.
The turbo itself doesn't know and doesn't care how the actuator works, just as long as the wastegate opens at a pre-set level that prevents damage. Again, the wastegate is simply a door, it opens, so whatever sits on top of the turbo that helps to open or shut that door makes no difference whatsoever. The turbo can't tell.
Your actual boost numbers can vary even on the same turbo. Altitude plays a very important roll in this. Just on my truck, I can gain 5-6 psi of additional boost just by dropping 6000 ft. There are other factors that can change boost, for example, swapping out the compressor wheel, changing the compressor housing, etc. Many PSD owners do these types of mods, so naturally, keeping the exact same wastegate control can actually hurt performance on a modified system, or even when the truck is at a different altitude.
The same goes for the turbine side. Different exhaust housings will change the drive pressures that the turbo see's. You already mentioned this earlier, that older turbos had larger compressor housings and didn't necessarily need a wastegate. True, larger compressor housings reduce that exhaust backpressure, negating the need for a wastegate. However, many of those older engines didn't have intercooling either. That makes a big difference in turbo lag, making it easier to run larger turbine housings. Compare the OBS PSD's to the newer 7.3L PSD's. The OBS trucks don't have an intercooler in stock form, but have a larger non-wastegated turbine housing.
Wastegate actuators can be designed to be as simple or as complicated as you want. Here's an idea, if you want 100% total control of a wastegate, design an electronic motorized actuator that "locks" the wastegate shut, and will not open it unless commanded by the PCM. No springs, no tension to keep it shut. In this way, there is zero chance of the exhaust pressure opening the wastegate too early or too late. You have full electronic control over the wastegate. Now, when do you want it to open? Do you want to base it off of boost pressure? How about drive pressure? How about turbo RPM's? The design can go on and on, and you can make it as complicated as you want.
In the end, the TurboMaster is very simplistic in design, but it does work. It will not harm your turbo unless you improperly adjust it, and run the turbo beyond it's designed limits. The same can be said for the stock actuator and/or the Banks Big Head. Improper adjustments can allow you to still run the turbo beyond what it was designed for. Both setups are subject to the same amount of human error with installation and adjustment. The TurboMaster is just simpler and quicker to adjust when compared to the BBH or the stock actuator, and it's cheaper than the BBH. That's what makes it so popular with many people on this and other forums. There are tons of people using the TurboMaster without problems. Don't bash a product that for all practical reasons, works nearly identical to the stock system or the BBH, and accomplishes the exact same thing.
lol......... ok :doh:That's waaaay to much of explanation/justification for me to even read all the way through
Springs, as well as a port for using the built in actuator diaphram, exactly like the stock wastegate actuators. They they even consider using the actuator diaphram as optional. It's more adjustable if you have an electronic air control valve to actuate the diaphram. Then you can simply adjust on the fly.BTW....I HATE internal gates. Anyone know what Tial gates use for reference.
I thought I already mentioned it works exactly like the stock actuator.I think the question was refering to where Tial picks up their reference signal (i.e. boost pressure), not what they reference it against.
That I am missing, because I can't find anything on their site that says you must use a signal reference in order for it to work. They give you a wide variety of spring rates to choose from, so you can dial it in pretty easily that way. However, I would agree that it does allow you more adjustability, especially if you are able to electronically control your reference signal from inside the cab. That would make it easier than the TurboMaster to adjust.According to Tial, you MUST use a signal reference to the gate.