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Would you like to see more talk on this subject

  • yes, very interested

    Votes: 64 88.9%
  • no, not interested

    Votes: 8 11.1%
  • No way, I'll lose money

    Votes: 0 0.0%

Open source tuning

21K views 117 replies 32 participants last post by  Groovy Chick 
#1 ·
Discuss.
 
#90 ·
Sleeper, I just have a small independent shop. I have been around the Powerstroke scene since the beginning. I am far from what many people would call a tuner. I can make files for the trucks that come through my shop, but I don't hardly sell to the masses like many on here do. That is not my intention. On any given day I could be tuning a Mustang, Powerstroke, V10 whatever, Expedition, or like last week, I had a 69 El Camino with a blown 468 on the dyno. I also work on the Cummins and Dmaxes as well.

I am spread far to thin in my little shop to be half as good as most of the guys who would be labeled tuners. I have a nice little local niche carved out for myself and that's all I need to make a good living.
 
#94 ·
I would define open source code as the code that runs the ECM not the GUI that displays tables on the screen. My post was not about saying it could not or should not be done but more about if you do it understand the risk involved in doing it. Using any of the current software to make chips up is no big deal and making one format that everyone was to follow would be simple as well but I think most would not spend the time and effort to go back and redo it for the limited market in the 7.3L field. Motes makes chips, TS make chips and yes TTS still makes chips. Most everyone else out there buys from one of the three of us for the chips themselves. There may be a few more that I've missed but its not very many, if I was to guess there would not be 3 more for a total of 6 manufactures of the chips for the EEC-IV and EEC -V.

As Bill said it's not all that hard to reverse the definition tables, but what about all the other tables and constants that are yet not identified? There is no reason any one base file should run better or worse in a given application if we knew all of the code, but since we don't we use the base that works the best and go from there. When you hear people telling you use this base code or send in your ECM and we will flash it to a different base code that is the reason for it! It's called a lack of knowledge to fix the under lying issue. Sharing files if you would like to call it that has been going on for years.
 
#96 ·
As Bill said it's not all that hard to reverse the definition tables, but what about all the other tables and constants that are yet not identified? There is no reason any one base file should run better or worse in a given application if we knew all of the code, but since we don't we use the base that works the best and go from there. When you hear people telling you use this base code or send in your ECM and we will flash it to a different base code that is the reason for it! It's called a lack of knowledge to fix the under lying issue. Sharing files if you would like to call it that has been going on for years.
Steve,

I agree with you on 99.6% of what you said there. However, I have found one or two situations where the base calibration OS (aside from the parameters, maps, and functions) has actually caused a change in the way the vehicle functions. We have built hundreds of "hybrid calibrations" over the years on different calibration bases and have found that even with all the parameters 100% matched, there is something in the OS portion of the calibration that causes the maps or functions to be processed differently and results in an overall performance change. This is often the reason for changing to a different base calibration, although using different calibrations can often be used to mask poor or ineffective code.

As always, we know where much of the 7.3L tuning started from and I respect your opinion over just about anyone else in the industry. Just wish you had more time to post and share your knowledge. :)

Take care.
 
#102 ·
Bill

That's just what I mean, the parts that we have never spent the time to figure out is where things are hidden. There are limiter in there that make one base OS and calibration work better than others no matter what we seem to do with it. To me that just means we do not understand it well enough at this point in time. The problem for me is just not worth the effort any longer to chase it. This is where open source code shines as you can get many to work on these issues but it's not at the level of tuning. Just taking any number of the software packages that allow a user to change isn't going to get anything further along, but would be of some fun for some owners.

Then again maybe I just do not think of tuning as open source code the same way as others do.
 
#106 ·
Bill

That's just what I mean, the parts that we have never spent the time to figure out is where things are hidden. There are limiter in there that make one base OS and calibration work better than others no matter what we seem to do with it. To me that just means we do not understand it well enough at this point in time. The problem for me is just not worth the effort any longer to chase it. This is where open source code shines as you can get many to work on these issues but it's not at the level of tuning. Just taking any number of the software packages that allow a user to change isn't going to get anything further along, but would be of some fun for some owners.

Then again maybe I just do not think of tuning as open source code the same way as others do.
Not sure of anyone else thoughts but that right there is why I am interested, there are plenty of smart guys out there with time to kill that would do it just for the challenge.
 
#108 ·
As Bill pointed out to me in a PM today, he is tuning for the 6.0, 6.4 and a bunch of gas stuff. The % of his sales that are based on 7.3L owners is apparently pretty low.

Jody does do 6.0L tuning, but I don't believe he's doing the 6.4 and his gas tuning is very limited. When it comes to giving away his 7.3L stuff, he's got more to lose. I frankly don't blame him for remaining tight lipped about his tuning, I'm sure I'd be the same way in his position. It has little to do with being selfish and a LOT to do with the fact that it's his livlihood and how he and Diane feed their kids and pay their bills.
 
#118 ·
I'm not exactly sure how Jody would have more to lose than anyone else, and I'm don't understand why PHP is being compared to DP-Tuner in this post. Before Bill went to work for Edge in 2004, Jody supported his family very well with his computer business; I've not doubt that if 7.3L tuning dried up and blew away tomorrow, he'd still be able to pay his bills just fine. He's a smart man.

FWIW, when we owned Diesel Power, all we did was 7.3L tuning, and we were still selling our DP-Tuner Software and RDT files. We were able to pay our bills and feed our kids.


As I said in another post, nobody is required to share anything on here or anywhere else. It's a decision made by each individual.

When we unexpectedly had to form PHP in the Fall of 2007, we focused on the F-150 because Bill's name had been out of the forum loop while he was at Edge, and we've made a huge impact in that market over the past two years. Since we started posting on the diesel forums again a few months ago, 7.3L customers have our phone ringing off the hook! We get phone calls every day from new customers and people who are thrilled that Bill is back in the 7.3L game and offering a variety of options for the 7.3L. We even had a call from someone who'd been trying to track Bill down for the past three years ever since he'd spoken with one of our Diesel Power customers! :D

As I told someone this weekend, as long as you provide a reliable product at a fair price, customers will be knocking down your door.

Even with open source tuning information being made public, I doubt anyone's going to be going out of business any time soon.
 
#110 ·
Ok ok....
My bad. I guess it's just sour grapes because I'd really like something like the F6, but I don't want to be limited to one tuner...

And I still think he could share insight if he's such a great guy... Noone asked him to give up any of his secrets....

I think there's a lot to be gained by selling his F6's hardware, but instead, they have the "exclusive" rights to it and noone else can get it or burn onto it...

What about that technology that he has that allows him to tune a truck while it's running without removing the PCM. Is that available to the public?
 
#111 ·
Ok ok....


What about that technology that he has that allows him to tune a truck while it's running without removing the PCM. Is that available to the public?
that's not proprietary technology to dp tuner. I think Bill has already posted somewhere in this forum the equipment needed, what is available, and what he uses to live tune, well maybe not EXACTLY what he uses...:D
but the hardware is available......
 
#114 ·
The whole idea of "this or that tuner doesn't share" is kind of a moot point really. It's really a specific tuner's choice as to how they choose to run their business. Look at John Woods or Brian at BTS for example... they don't post in the transmission section of the forum telling people how to rebuild their transmissions or diagnosing transmission problems over the internet.

However, they will gladly talk to you over the phone or in person, and share lots of information with you face to face. It's just a perference of how each individual wants to do business with their customers.

A few posts in this thread are referring to DP-Tuner. Now Jody himself rarely visits the forums, and if you look at his post counts they are extremely low in any forum that he is a member. Diane on the other hand is on the forums extensively at times, but mainly to provide customer support when needed. That is how they choose to run their business, and for years it has been working well for them. I have talked to Jody face to face on several occasions, and he is much more open about tuning than some might realize. On that note though, this is his livelyhood and he does want to remain in business. So naturally he is going to protect certain aspects of his business just like all the other vendors on this forum.

Everyone has a different approach to running their own business. It's what makes them all unique and gives them that specific niche in the market that attracts customers. DP-Tuner, PHP, Gearhead Automotive, DI, TW, and others all have a very very loyal customer following. Gauge the strength of a company based on customer satisfaction, and that's where you'll find a winning combination. Of course this industry is constantly changing, and all of the tuners I've mentioned have done an excellent job of adapting. Now the industry will change more in the coming months and years, and you can bet that these guys (and gals) will adapt and work their magic.

Honestly, think back to just 4 or 5 years ago, and look at how far tuning has come today. Big strides have been made, yet we are still just scratching the surface.
 
#117 ·
Good post Curtis, I totally agree with you.

Tom
 
#115 ·
There are already plenty of software packages for the 7.3L out there so I do not understand why it's compared to EFI Live being the end all save all type thing here. The 7.3L has just as much around for it but it takes time to use it and most are unwilling. There is plenty missing from EFI Live just as there is from PHP, Sniper and the others that there you can already get for the 7.3L. What it takes is a package effort to make a 7.3L run so you cannot compare it to a common rail engine.

What need to be worked on is the CODE for a 7.3L not Tuning as that's not going to solve it. I just do not see that happening at this point in time.
 
#116 ·
:whs: almost...

While I do agree tuning is important there is not some massive amount of HP that will be magically unlocked by some random undiscovered table. Code changes could be very helpful, but will never give us the ability to command an injection event large enough at high RPMs to give us the ability to fuel there even at the same injection duration as a p-pumped motor. For the real high end guys the ability to have an injection duration with a real quantity of fuel at a high RPM is going to take serious mechanical advancements. The computer is already capable of giving us a large enough duration, the problem is the mechanics can not inject a large enough quantity of fuel in that time period.

Now that doesn't interest many of the people in this thread but it is my pimary interest in tuning my truck myself is simply to tune and dial in some of the parts that I have been working on. I built components to act a certain way and who better to tune an engine with those parts than the guy that understands how and why those exact modifications were made. I know I have a learning curve ahead of me on this, but it doesn't matter who tunes it there is a learning curve for that unique combination of parts. No one has tuned injectors like mine. Period.

Go or Blow!
 
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