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Would you like to see more talk on this subject

  • yes, very interested

    Votes: 64 88.9%
  • no, not interested

    Votes: 8 11.1%
  • No way, I'll lose money

    Votes: 0 0.0%

Open source tuning

21K views 117 replies 32 participants last post by  Groovy Chick 
#1 ·
Discuss.
 
#41 ·
David or one of you guys how much of the PCM code are any of you even able to see/adjust vs what is there in total? I was under the impression that there is a lot of uncharted territory in there.

Tom
 
#42 ·
I have a question for you all. How would you know if the source of the information that you have is correct? This has been a huge problem through the industry as one person calls something by one name while another calls it something else. There are no names within the code so they have to be made up to mean something to the person making up the names. I've been doing this longer than most and I can tell you that over the years I've seen plenty of people who have bought software and then called themselves a tuner. A year later they are gone. Back when I started most of the people today didn't event know what a diesel was, let alone how to tune one. We have disassemble the code for most all the 7.3L stuff and I can tell you we only understand about 1/3 of what goes on in any one code version and there are hundreds if not thousands of code versions. We only figure out what we need and then move on as that is all there is time for. Would it be nice to know more? Sure but there just is not the time to do it all. Something about needing to make a living comes into it at some point.

If your going to try this for yourself that's great but just remember what comes along with it.
 
#64 ·
I think the point David is trying to make is that currently on a small handful of people are actually messing around with tuning, and that with open source it would be possible to involve more people. If more people are involved, more ideas are shared, more of the PCM mysteries are solved, and we learn how to better tune the PSD's faster than ever before.

So yes it sounds like a daunting task, but it's going to remain a big task if only a small number of people attempt to tackle it. Get more minds going on this, and you have a greater pool of resources to get more accomplished.

Open source software is currently one of the fastest growing sectors in software development. It's spreading everywhere, and it's only a matter of time before it hits the Powerstroke world too. Vendors who embrace the idea early might be on to something, and ahead of the curve. Right now the first steps have been taken through Sniper, PHP, DP-Tuner, and a few others. Just look at the hardware they provide, it screams sharing and interconnectivity. They are laying the groundwork for future generations of software and tuning for these trucks.
 
#67 ·
I think the point David is trying to make is that currently on a small handful of people are actually messing around with tuning, and that with open source it would be possible to involve more people. If more people are involved, more ideas are shared, more of the PCM mysteries are solved, and we learn how to better tune the PSD's faster than ever before.

So yes it sounds like a daunting task, but it's going to remain a big task if only a small number of people attempt to tackle it. Get more minds going on this, and you have a greater pool of resources to get more accomplished.

Open source software is currently one of the fastest growing sectors in software development. It's spreading everywhere, and it's only a matter of time before it hits the Powerstroke world too. Vendors who embrace the idea early might be on to something, and ahead of the curve. Right now the first steps have been taken through Sniper, PHP, DP-Tuner, and a few others. Just look at the hardware they provide, it screams sharing and interconnectivity. They are laying the groundwork for future generations of software and tuning for these trucks.
I was making a list of the current software/hardware offerings that allowed the end user to modify their tunes, I know the previously mentioned Sniper and PHP, is DP Tuner offering a similar set up and when you say others to whom are you referring too?
 
#70 ·
I was making a list of the current software/hardware offerings that allowed the end user to modify their tunes, I know the previously mentioned Sniper and PHP, is DP Tuner offering a similar set up and when you say others to whom are you referring too?
What I meant by that is for everyone to take a look at either the hardware or the software (or a combination of both). In regards to DP-Tuner, it's their hardware with the F-6 chip that would make it extremely easy to connect, share, etc if they so choose to go that route. After all, their F-6 chip has a secondary connection that allows you to plug your computer directly to the chip without ever having to uninstall it from the PCM. IMO that's a good hardware model to follow for anyone looking at open source tuning. That's the reason why I threw DP-Tuner into the mix simply for that purpose. All you need for that is a chip and the software, and you don't need a secondary chip burner.

Successful open source tuning would have to be a combination of the right software and hardware. If it's easy enough for the average "shadetree mechanic" to use and understand, then it would catch on much quicker.

As for other examples, most are in the gasser world and have been offering things like what we are discussing in this thread for quite some time now. In the 7.3L world, we are actually behind the curve. However, the idea of emailing new tunes for the Powerstroke has been around for many years now. Diablosport has offered downloads for their Predator program to 7.3L owners. Although it's very limited, the basic concept has been there for a while. They do offer CRM custom tuning for gas engines, and those tunes can be emailed to the end user. They don't seem to offer CRM for the Powerstrokes though.

To be honest, I think that information sharing is going to be the wave of the future for Powerstroke tuning. It's just going to take some time to catch on. Vendors have a clear opportunity to jump ahead of the curve, and some are beginning to take those steps. I say "beginning" because I feel that we are still just in the infancy stage of all this, and it hasn't been universally accepted. Powerstroke tuning is still a mystery, and there is quite a few things that even the best tuners haven't quite figured out yet. Everyone has something more to learn.

Just think about this for a second.... why are there so many posts where there is a combination of tuner defending/bashing that goes on in the forums (not just this, but all other forums too, and this goes beyond just Powerstrokes... it's evident in all vehicle brands and engine types). The reason this goes on is because no one has got it just right. The thing is, no one will ever get it just right. Every person drives and uses their truck differently. Programs and tunes available from even the best vendors still don't always match just right with the end user. One person might prefer Swamps tunes, another might prefer PHP, and yet another might prefer DI. It doesn't mean that one tuner is better than the other, it just means they all have a different approach and a different end result. If that end user is able to tweak or adjust something to make the program right in their eyes, then in the end you have a more satisfied customer. However, for a long time those tweaks and adjustments have remained in the hands of a select few. Sure there have been offerings from Sniper, and more recently PHP has stepped it up too. This is a growing opportunity for all tuners and vendors. At least that's how I see it.

And I don't see open source tuning or information sharing as detrimental to the existing vendors. If anything, they can use it to enhance sales and customer satisfaction, which would increase revenues for all of them.

How is DP tuner in there at all?? They don't share a DAMN THING. I would never even contemplate ASKING them for any hints, tips, or tricks if I was tyooning.
This thread is already a kind of touchy subject for some, so let's please try if at all possible not to start in any direction that would lead to vendor bashing, which would then result in this thread being locked up or deleted. I've just explained why I had them on the list, so let's please discuss the topic at hand. Thanks.
 
#43 ·
Time to waterboard some of the original engineers on the project? :gun:
 
#49 ·
What Diesel Tech posted is exactly what I mean. Unless someone is completely ripping off the work it takes to build a template to be able to modify any file. No one who spends that kind of time is going to give it away for free.

Yes, I think that would be an excellent benefit to the Powerstroke. EFILive is about $500-$600 depending on vendor, and that would be a good price point for the Powerstroke, especially if it would do data collection from the PCM also.
Exactly my point. You can buy from either a PHP or Sniper product that will do this exact thing today. David himself knows he could sell anyone in this thread the capability with a Sniper Commando package for roughly $500 for the hobbiest to do thier own tuning. Anyone with either of these two platforms could share any or all of the files they create back and forth. Today. I just don't understand what all the hub bub is.

Every thing you guys are talking about doing is available today with out anyone having to release anything. Also at a fair price with some customer support.
 
#51 ·
What Diesel Tech posted is exactly what I mean. Unless someone is completely ripping off the work it takes to build a template to be able to modify any file. No one who spends that kind of time is going to give it away for free.


Exactly my point. You can buy from either PHP or Sniper a product that will do this exact thing today. David himself knows he could sell anyone in this thread the capability with a Sniper Commando package for roughly $500 for the hobbiest to do thier own tuning. Anyone with either of these two platforms could share any or all of the files they create back and forth. Today. I just don't understand what all the hub bub is.

Every thing you guys are talking about doing is available today with out anyone having to release anything. Also at a fair price with some customer support.
Look into this site, then tell me why people will go through the trouble to hack just about any software you want and they do it for free.

http://isohunt.com/

You have to realize that there are people out there capable that actually want to be helpful without being compensated for their work.
There are plenty of DIY's on this site alone that would play around with their trucks if a free software was available.

For grins google open source tuning, heres is an example.
http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/begin_open_source_tuning-t6977.html?
 
#50 ·
Hi guys, i know for a fact that the complete tuning process is real hard, a friend of mine has his own company in germany and works on vw, porsche and audi, to get a good and safe tune it takes lots of money to work out the best tune and on some level you have to work with the big gunes like vw,porsche and audi.
They have to run test on real cars and get back to rewrite the whole thing sometimes.
I think it is just fair to pay somebody good money for the work he has done and we all take things from somewhere they dont belong to us, do we not?
 
#55 ·
Sorry, nothing is free about this. You still need some hardware to connnect to whatever device you use to change the ecm. Whether it is a direct flash or using a chip. For roughly the same money, you can buy every thing all ready to go.

David, can you or can you not sell anyone who wants it, the capabilities to write their own tunes for the same price you sell you six position chip for? The rest of us can. Anyone who would actually need to do some DIY tuning has at the very least already put a chip in their truck. Paying the same price for the tuning software and the hardware to put the tune in the truck doesn't seem like a bad deal at all.
 
#69 ·
How is DP tuner in there at all?? They don't share a DAMN THING. I would never even contemplate ASKING them for any hints, tips, or tricks if I was tyooning.

The first people I would go to, and the people that I KNOW will be quick to share their knowledge is David Lott, Matt Robinson, Bill Cohren, and Blowby... If I'm forgetting any, I'm sorry. I've never heard much on tuning from aggie, but I know he's a good guy.
 
#71 ·
You're right. I shouldn't have been quite so critical...

I just wish that they were a little more open with the way they do stuff...

Like, I'd love to have a multi position chip that I didn't have to remove from the truck to load...
Think about how great that would be for the tuning world. But they hold that technology as their own and will not share it. Even though they could sell JUST that technology and make more money... It's one of their "gimmicks" for lack of a better word. To sell chips.
 
#72 ·
:whs: When i had the DP tuner i liked the chip and the technology... just i like my tunes from Matt better. If they would sell that technology then anyone could write a tune for it... and i could run DI, PHP, and matts tunes on the same chip. and then also i would love to be able to write my own and see how they compare. With out ever having to change hardware or pull the chip.
 
#73 ·
Also... Consider this... I'm sure you have... multiple times...

You and 10 other people have a DI, PHP, DP, and GAP "economy" file on one 6 pos. And you all do testing on characteristics and actual gains on EACH file... and you have them to switch between and feel the difference in each.

Then, you all share your findings and help to come to the best "common ground" for all four chips' "econo" setting...


Wouldn't that be REALLY helpful??
 
#76 ·
I don't understand why this is not already available. Most cars I have seen in the last few years already have this, even newer ones. It is not however usually free. You have to start with a modified chip $$$ from a tuning company that will allow you to access the parameters in a small GUI which itself is an "open source" product. The auto manufacturers I have seen have the ECU pretty well locked down.

I have built, installed, tuned, and run, the widely known Megasquirt for the last several years. It wasn't free, but everything is open source. People still buy other piggyback ECUs, pre-built Megasquirts with tuning, or have a knowledgeable tuner do it for them, or the easiest route stick a chip or recode it. Most people just want to go fast and don't car exactly how things work. I do.

I am for it but most people are going to save time and work and skip it. Just think of all the extra parts vendors will be able to sell from people blowing stuff up.
 
#77 ·
I will wade in one more time, because the last few posts are touching on exactly what I was trying to convey. (perhaps poorly) For starters I in no way shape or form give a damn about who makes any money from anything. I am not out to sell anything, period. After some thought, my point is simply this:

Right now today, and for at least a year or more, anyone on this thread for roughly the same price of six position chip can buy the software and hardware to tune their own trucks AND email the tunes to each other if they so desire. The technology is here and absolutely ready to use. I am more familiar more familiar with Sniper products because that is what I have been using, but from what I understand PHP is basically the same thing except much more user friendly. I am not trying to sell Sniper products, like I said, I couldn't care less who buys what, but with the Sniper software already available you can:

Pull the stock file out of your truck's pcm

Use a program that has drop down menus to adjust the basic parameters

Burn that file to a chip or directly flash it to your pcm

If you want to refine the program more than the basic editor does, you can adjust it very much the same way any established tuner does endlessly

With the tunes/files you create yourself, you can email them to anyone you want that has the software to use them.



So my point was, there are already several platforms available to do what everyone wants to do here without "ripping" off anyone's templates or having hurt feelings. I am still at a loss why David jumped down my throat. Starting from scratch with "free" templates and software that isn't proven is going to be a rough road at best. Not to mention the endless amount of different templates for the 7.3 alone. Wouldn't it make more sense to use the platforms all ready in place?

I think sharing the tunes is a fantastic idea. Being able to compare another person's work is definately a very good learning tool. I orginally had thought this forum in particular was going to be geared much more towards this sort of exchange when it was first started.
 
#78 ·
I will wade in one more time, because the last few posts are touching on exactly what I was trying to convey. (perhaps poorly) For starters I in no way shape or form give a damn about who makes any money from anything. I am not out to sell anything, period. After some thought, my point is simply this:

Right now today, and for at least a year or more, anyone on this thread for roughly the same price of six position chip can buy the software and hardware to tune their own trucks AND email the tunes to each other if they so desire. The technology is here and absolutely ready to use. I am more familiar more familiar with Sniper products because that is what I have been using, but from what I understand PHP is basically the same thing except much more user friendly. I am not trying to sell Sniper products, like I said, I couldn't care less who buys what, but with the Sniper software already available you can:

Pull the stock file out of your truck's pcm

Use a program that has drop down menus to adjust the basic parameters

Burn that file to a chip or directly flash it to your pcm

If you want to refine the program more than the basic editor does, you can adjust it very much the same way any established tuner does endlessly

With the tunes/files you create yourself, you can email them to anyone you want that has the software to use them.

Sniper tunes will only open with Sniper software.

So my point was, there are already several platforms available to do what everyone wants to do here without "ripping" off anyone's templates or having hurt feelings. Open source is not ripping off anybodies template or hard work I am still at a loss why David jumped down my throat. your not listening, there are other shops yet you went and built your own!!! why would you do that??? Starting from scratch with "free" templates and software that isn't proven is going to be a rough road at best. You and I were not proven at one point, we both learned from trial and error leading to experiance which is what makes us good Not to mention the endless amount of different templates for the 7.3 alone. Wouldn't it make more sense to use the platforms all ready in place? yes it would but then thats all we would have., can you imagine if only Ford made vehicles, where we would be right now?
I think sharing the tunes is a fantastic idea. Being able to compare another person's work is definately a very good learning tool. I orginally had thought this forum in particular was going to be geared much more towards this sort of exchange when it was first started.
Crucifying people for wanting to share their ideas is not exactly the best way to make this forum grow:doh:
 
#79 ·
Sniper tunes will only open with Sniper software.
PHP and Sniper tunes aren't interchangable with some file renaming? I was under the assumption that you could swap between the two programs. No?

your not listening, there are other shops yet you went and built your own!!! why would you do that???
Because it's too cold up here to work outside. ;)

You and I were not proven at one point, we both learned from trial and error leading to experiance which is what makes us good
True. But my point is that I didn't start with a block of steel, a chisel, and a dream of having a diesel engine. (close) There was an engine with an electronics system in place when I bought my first Powerstroke over a decade ago. So we work with what we have and make the most of it. For the longest time SCT had the only software for the common person to do anything with. It was priced fairly high. Under the assumption that Sniper and PHP files can play nice with each other, tuning has never been easier or within the grasp of the average joe than it is now. I have thought many times over how much I would have liked to have this software ten years ago. My life would have been much easier.

yes it would but then thats all we would have., can you imagine if only Ford made vehicles, where we would be right now?
All of us would probably be in the same place. In fact, we might be conversing on a website with the exact same name.


Crucifying people for wanting to share their ideas is not exactly the best way to make this forum grow
I wasn't crucifying anyone. I am under the assumption, from the information I have (I didn't read any other threads), that someone released or was going to release something that belong to DP at one point. I have asked several times for clarification, but really didn't get any, just sarcasm. I wished I had more time to read every one of the 700 diesel message boards, but I just don't.
 
#81 ·
PHP and Sniper tunes aren't interchangable with some file renaming? I was under the assumption that you could swap between the two programs. No?


No, Sniper files are encrypted.




I wasn't crucifying anyone. I am under the assumption, from the information I have (I didn't read any other threads), that someone released or was going to release something that belong to DP at one point. I have asked several times for clarification, but really didn't get any, just sarcasm. I wished I had more time to read every one of the 700 diesel message boards, but I just don't.
Below is the original quote in question, notice the parts in bold.
I apologize for my tone towards you, I thought you already knew the origins of this thread and were dead set against someone knew to the scene.
Seems the gentleman is only trying to be helpful and was willing to do so for no cost. Bill and Tim were at one time in the same shoes as this guy is, now look what they have to offer:poke:
I have successfully reprogrammed my dp tuner because I got bigger injectors. Saved me some money. Easier than you think. Here is how to do it. Buy a burn 2 chip programmer with F2A Ford Module Programming Adapter and F2E Integrated Ford EEC Computer Reading Interface from Moates.net. Then download a gui software like eec editor or Tunerpro which are free. Use the hardware to get the stock bin file out of your pcm. Then load the .def file that I have created and will give to you if you want it. Then use the GUI to edit your engines paramiters. Then burn it to the chip using burn 2. The hardware is only 95 dollars for everything and the and you got complete control of every option to change in the 7.3.
Notice no where does it say he was giving away or selling anything that belonged to DP tuner.
 
#80 ·
I'm not exactly sure what you two are going at... So I'll tell you what I envision as the perfect sharing-learning-self tuning platform.

Capability to receive and read any tune that is usable in a PowerStroke's PCM.

Capability to then adjust that tune in anyway you want.

Capabilty to install any tune into your chip without removing the chip from your truck. Understandably you would have a limited number of positions...

And of course the ability to share tunes... on a forum would be nice, but over e-mail would be acceptable.

Let's travel to the land of make-believe...

I have a 6 pos. chip with some tunes of my own.

Me: David... I'd like to see your "Snow White" and "Elmo" tunes.

David: Ok. Let me find it *sends "Snow White" and "elmo" tunes.*

I plug my laptop in and load those two tunes into my chip while still in the truck and drive it for a week to get a feel for the tunes.

After I get a feel for everything... I notice I really like the way the "elmo" tune fuels up top, but the shift pattern doesn't fit me for daily driving and there is more timing than I like down low.

I like the way the "snow white" tune feels down low, but it's a little much up top on fuel and timing.

The way my tunes shift are great IMO and I don't want to change much about them...

Then I get on my laptop and lay all of these tunes out, and make them all work together by taking hints about where PW, "timing", ICP and other options are.

I imagine the real art of it all is getting them to flow smoothly but in the end getting the result you were looking for.

I show David what I came up with and he looks it over and says "Cool, looks like a good strong DD tune." and tries it out for a week but decides there's a few things he could do... A few "tricks". And sends it back...

And we keep going until we both have nice tunes for our trucks... maybe a bit different, but made in partnership.

Disclaimer:
I don't know crap about the "snow white", or "elmo" tunes. I just used them and Davids name for the hell of it.
 
#84 ·
Notice no where does it say he was giving away or selling anything that belonged to DP tuner.
Now I'm with you. From original few posts it appeared that he was giving away the definition files from DP. When that stuff starts getting passed around it never ends well. Perhaps I was just cranky yesterday morning because I had to change some Dmax injectors. ;)

Not being an AHole... but who is Johnboy? Obviously a tuner...
Nobody. I like to stay as far under the radar as possible.
 
#87 ·
The fact is that every chip out there can be read by any person who has the capability. I can't speak for everyone out there -- nor would I want to -- but I know that the main issue that we've had for several years is people distributing Bill's calibrations and claiming them as their own.

There is definitely a certain amount of pride in coming up with something cool and different -- even if only slightly so, in some cases -- than anyone else's tunes, and people really should get credit where it's due.

As far as distributing our calibrations so that people can learn from them and use them as a springboard... well, heck, that's what we've been doing ever since we sold our DP-Tuner Software (not the company) and RDTs to Jody, Tony, Dennis, and LOADS of other people when we owned Diesel Power! We've been open to sharing ideas for years, and most people who purchased DP-Tuner Software have acted ethically. It's the people who took Bill's tunes and sold them as their own that we've had a problem with. If you think about it, we even posted ON THIS FORUM how our Whisper Mode tune works, and that was some pretty cool $hit.

NOBODY is REQUIRED to share here -- or anywhere else, for that matter! That being said, I have a feeling that the idea of open source tuning being discussed on this forum would be very limited to only a few tuners who already have these discussions with each other all the time; Bill's always on the phone with Tony, David, Jonathan, Matt, Mike, and others, as well as our Minotaur customers discussing how to do this or that or what tables to manipulate. Just my
 
#88 ·
Johnboy has been around this game for a long time. Long before this site was here.

Tom
 
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