Good Truck gone Bad?!? Substantial Drivability Issues - PowerStrokeNation : Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 07:18 AM Thread Starter
aggiediesel01
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: H-Town, TX
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Good Truck gone Bad?!? Substantial Drivability Issues

Bear with me while I get all this out of me head and written down so maybe someone here can steer me in the right direction.

Truck;
Built 5/97 Cali Truck CCSB 4x4 (As far as I have been able to tell it was bought and kept in Utah till I bought it in 2012)
PCM - MME0 (Pretty sure this is what I saw when I had the kick panel off)
Cal - 7-90P (That's the sticker in the door, pretty sure it's never been updated)

PO installed Guages, ATS Intercooler, 4" exhaust, Superchip programmer. Everything else appeared stock. It seems the PO used the Truck to pull a 5er for vacations only as it took 15yrs to rack up 88,000 miles (I know about the 5er from the rails in the bed and google earth images of his house =).

History
I brought it to Texas and starting driving it cause it just makes me smile. Near 120k the torque converter started to fail and wasted the front pump. I rebuilt and upgraded everything necessary inside according to BTS (I wanted him to build it but I didn't have time for the back log) and put a PI Converter in front with the lower stall option. 40k later zero troubles there so I must have done something right for a change. I did have BTS tune the valve body when I was passing through a year later and those guys are truly helpful, I wish I had had more time to hang out.

When the trans was out, I replaced the up-pipes & doughnuts and found a missing gasket on the turbo output that helped the truck make a bit more boost.

Slight regression, the problem I've been trying to solve since I bought the truck is that the truck will go extra sluggish on occasion for me, never enough to get too excited about but I've chased the problem on and off to no avail b/c I've not found anyone else on here or the other common sites with similar enough issues that were ever solved and Iíve never found sensor data that was way out of line using my AE diag scanner. I've always thought that boost was a bit low but everyone I talked to chalked it up to the intercooler doing its job. It's never performed like other powerstrokes I've driven or ridden in but itís been manageable and like I said it makes me smile to drive it around. I've never been able to get boost over ~18psi on the gauge in the truck but I've never really had a trailer on it that weighs more than 6-8k. I've always run the Max Performance program until yesterday when I put it back to stock to make a record of drive-ability in stock now that my problem has become so much worse.

Problem
The problem history goes something like this; other than the less than stellar performance on occasion, it also 2-3 times a year would throw P1393 and or P1391 Glow Plug Low Input. Usually this would happen when it's cold (texas cold, like maybe freezing) but itís happened several times in the middle of summer too, always at a cold start for the day. I never thought too much of it b/c I never had trouble getting the truck to kick off and I knew that when I bought it, the dealer had just replaced 3 of the GPs and it usually went away after a few key cycles. I did visibly check the harness connections outside the valve covers and re-seated the connectors. I've not seen any evidence of overheating of the plugs or harnesses but I'm not ruling that out, I just haven't explored it further.

This year I decided that since it was giving the code more frequently I would go ahead and replace all 8 GPs and gaskets and under cover harnesses. Hasn't been done yet but all the parts are on the bench.

Then the other day (2/10) a fuel puddle shows up under the truck. I check it out (2/14) and find a leak from the fuel pump or accumulator saucer under the turbo mount so I've got parts on the way for that. While I'm poking around I decided to dig out my computer and do a little more investigating with AE since I'm going to have the valve covers off soon maybe I'll find something helpful and at least be able to log a few miles before and after to see if there are any noticeable differences. So, I've got my laptop hooked up and I run some of the diag tests, notably I run the buzz test twice. First time I didn't really know what to expect, second time it sounds pretty much the same. All definitely buzzed and from where I was standing there was slight pitch change from inj to inj but none seemed to exhibit a major difference (However this is the first time I've run this on my truck and other than the general idea of what it is supposed to do I can't claim expert knowledge) I'm not sure if the buzz test is supposed to return any values but it said that it passed.

2/14
Real Problems start when I fire the truck up after the buzz test. Now it sounds more aggressive at idle like a 49 state truck, and a bit lopey. Then I try to drive it and it can barely move. RPMs don't want to go over 1500 with the pedal on the floor at first and LOTs of whitish/bluish smoke. I finally make it down the street a bit and RPMs start to pick up and power is better but itís still very low on power. Further down the street, I can get the truck up to 40mph and it seems to smooth out a bit but when it goes back to idle, definitely sounds like itís missing a cylinder or two. I should note that the truck had been driven earlier in the day so it wasnít stone cold but it wasnít warm either. As it warms up, power gets better but timing is different for sure as the truck sounds more aggressive throughout the range, and shifts are more abrupt. Eventually the truck seems to run almost stronger than it used to but there is still a noticeable miss or lope at idle and itís slow out of the gate but otherwise drives normal or slightly quicker.
Back home, I hook up AE and run a cylinder contribution test and it sounds at several points like it might not make it through. Really rough some times and tons of smoke (smoke may be normal for this test?) Only codes were P1393 and P1391. I went to drive it again and record some data and it drove almost better than normal above 1200 rpm but there and below it was grumpy.

2/15
Truck kicked off fine at first this morning but after it idled for a few minutes it was getting progressively weaker and rougher sounding. Again, it barely made it down the street with almost zero power and more smoke. Once it was out on the road and I opened it up a bit, it drove like before, rough idle and low speed but seemingly as much or more top end than Iím used to. Smoke stopped after getting out on the main road. When I came back home I plugged AE in again and went for another data log drive. It felt about the same as previous night. I had a friend suggest swapping back to the factory programming to see if that recalibrated anything, so I did. Other than losing more power and resetting how the trans shifts it didnít seem to make much difference. I did make a data run in the stock configuration while warm for records. Then I put my fans on it for a few hours to try to make it cold again to see how it would act so I could record that as well. After 4-5 hrs, the oil in the pan was at ambient and so was the valley so it was as cold as I could get it. Started AE and cranked up the truck to make a record. Took it for a drive to get it warm and performance was unchanged.

In reviewing the data I can only find a few anomalies that donít really point to anything I understand about how these trucks are supposed to function. The biggest weird thing I found is that the Engine Coolant Temp Sensor seems to act bananas but the gauge acts fine and itís my understanding that this value isnít used in control so I donít know if I should let this distract me or not. Engine Oil Temp seems to be acting normal. Injector Control Pressure stays around 500 at idle and goes up to 2500 or more when accelerating. Map sensor seems to be showing appropriate changes in pressure with accel. Throttle position is slightly goofy, I cannot get it to go over ~75% squished to the floor. I have floor mats but I havenít pulled them out, maybe they are interfering but only at the top end. Vreff stays at 5.01.

Any ideas to go from here that donít immediately involve pulling injectors? Iíd be grateful for any suggestions as what to look for next. Again the only codes it will throw are P1391 and P1393. I did run the CCT again and it acted about the same as before and only posted P1391 and P1393. I guess really I need to solve those first with my new plugs, harnesses, and gaskets and see if thatís the magic bullet but if anyone has some special insight, Iíd love to hear it.

I attached the AE Datalogs if someone feels inclined to poke around and look for all the obvious stuff I missed. Thanks for any help offered.
Attached Files
File Type: xls Ford 7.3L CCSB Auto-1997-February 2017.xls (1.50 MB, 5 views)

AggieDiesel'01

'91 F250 4x4 XLT Lariat ext. cab ZF 5 speed, Ramsey 12k winch, Add-a-leaf in front, Ford Factory/ATS Upgraded Wastgated Turbo (installed @ 252k), 3.5in Hypermax Exhaust 330,000 and counting.

'97 F250 4x4 XLT CCSB Last of the good ones, 88,000 and counting. Not much done yet, came with gauges and a programmer.
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 12:11 PM
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Re: Good Truck gone Bad?!? Substantial Drivability Issues

Check the fuel pressure. When my pump went out, I got a lot of white smoke and it idled really rough. It had almost no power when driven. I could floor it and it would bog then clear up. Fuel pressure was 10psi to 25 psi up and down.

1997 CCSB, 7.3/E4OD
Full Force Stg 1 injectors, 3" DP, 4" exhaust, E-Fuel, 7.3 Intercooler, WW2, 1.0 Exhaust Housing, TS Chip, remote coolant filter, and VB.
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 02:58 PM
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Re: Good Truck gone Bad?!? Substantial Drivability Issues

Check that fuel pressure at WOT...you can use an oil pressure gauge and screw it in where the Schrader valve is on the filter housing. Also check your MAP hose to the intake for cracks or breaks. Unplug your MAP and see if that makes a difference...I had similar issues for nearly a year...the performance would come and go, run real good then not...it was the MAP. Good Luck..it is a good truck. I have over 408k on mine.

1996 F350 Crewcab lb 2wd auto, tommylift, now over 405k, 355k 3/31/15

1991 F250 Xtracab lb 2wd auto, sold again! Driveline and chassis going under a '65 F350

1965 F100 styleside, power brakes, front discs, 390 all the goodies

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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 04:34 PM Thread Starter
aggiediesel01
 
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Location: H-Town, TX
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Re: Good Truck gone Bad?!? Substantial Drivability Issues

Good point from both of you, I'll get my fuel gauge out and check it too. 55-60psi at WOT right? Fwiw, a couple years ago I swapped the map with a buddy's for a few days and it made no difference in either truck but I'm not ruling out anything anymore.

Anyone know the difference btwn the two data streams called manifold absolute pressure and intake manifold absolute pressure? The data coming in are slightly different.

Also, what is electronic pressure control? It seems to kind of follow the accelerator input.


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AggieDiesel'01

'91 F250 4x4 XLT Lariat ext. cab ZF 5 speed, Ramsey 12k winch, Add-a-leaf in front, Ford Factory/ATS Upgraded Wastgated Turbo (installed @ 252k), 3.5in Hypermax Exhaust 330,000 and counting.

'97 F250 4x4 XLT CCSB Last of the good ones, 88,000 and counting. Not much done yet, came with gauges and a programmer.
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 06:30 PM Thread Starter
aggiediesel01
 
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Re: Good Truck gone Bad?!? Substantial Drivability Issues

Interesting results. I have a fuel pressure gauge so I put it on and at first it only registered about 12 psi and was stuck there, accelerating didn't make a difference. the gauge is old and has been used for gasoline and oil systems as well so I thought it might be stuck. I bled the gauge and it went back to zero, I checked the connections to make sure the schrader valve was being pushed down and restarted the truck, it came up to 12 and kind of stayed there even with a couple of moderate romps on the pedal. Then I held it steady at about 2500 and pressure began to slowly rise through 20 and 40 psi. I increased the pedal to 2700 and acceleration seemed to stall like it didn't want to go higher and the miss was more pronounced and I could see some smoke. Then there was a change in the tone of the engine and fuel pressure rose rapidly to over 80 psi. Almost a jump to 80 but not quite, the truck smoothed out and when I came back to idle pressure stayed pulsing around 72-76psi. Then when I took the rpms back to 3000, pressure rose to above 95 but not quite 100. After this, the truck idles noticeably smoother but it's pretty warm now.

Is it possible that the Buzz test jammed a nozzle open?

If not, where does this point me?

I know the fuel pump is going to be replaced in the next couple days so that's a given. If that doesn't solve it, does the low pressure and smoke mean an injector is sticking open and draining the rail? Is this something a strong dose of ???? in the fuel bowl will clean out?

In the past, I've used the Gray Power Service Diesel Kleen + Cetane 2-3 times a year for general PM. Lots of people talk about Lucas products or just ATF, are they all just bandaids or can they really be a path forward to renovate a high mile injector?

AggieDiesel'01

'91 F250 4x4 XLT Lariat ext. cab ZF 5 speed, Ramsey 12k winch, Add-a-leaf in front, Ford Factory/ATS Upgraded Wastgated Turbo (installed @ 252k), 3.5in Hypermax Exhaust 330,000 and counting.

'97 F250 4x4 XLT CCSB Last of the good ones, 88,000 and counting. Not much done yet, came with gauges and a programmer.
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 09:25 PM
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Re: Good Truck gone Bad?!? Substantial Drivability Issues

Inside the fuel tanks there are plastic feet that look like hole saws. Mine were completely destroyed and scattered throughout the tank. Small pieces of the plastic had partially clogged my fuel lines at the selector valve. I blew compressed air back through the lines, replaced the plastic pickups and replaced the fuel tanks. The cliff caused the low fp and that made it run rough and smoke

1997 CCSB, 7.3/E4OD
Full Force Stg 1 injectors, 3" DP, 4" exhaust, E-Fuel, 7.3 Intercooler, WW2, 1.0 Exhaust Housing, TS Chip, remote coolant filter, and VB.
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 11:08 PM
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Re: Good Truck gone Bad?!? Substantial Drivability Issues

Here's a picture of the plastic foot/screen. Its at the end of the fuel pickup. If you replace it you probably will need a fuel sensor assembly oring and lock nut also.

FORD Fuel Tank Pickup Foot Original Equipment
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 01:38 AM Thread Starter
aggiediesel01
 
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Location: H-Town, TX
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Re: Good Truck gone Bad?!? Substantial Drivability Issues

Good thinking, I'm frustratingly aware of this problem with these trucks as well as I've had to replace that pickup foot on my old '91 twice (second time was because I left too strong a concentration of fuel additive in the tank while it was parked during restoration). However, typically this problem manifests itself with the symptom of not being able to use the tank down past 1/4 full I can still draw 15.5 gal out of the front and 14.5 from the rear tank and my gauge goes below E so I don't think mine are gone yet. I do have two spares sitting in my parts bin waiting the day it stalls at a 1/4 tank though. Tip on the replacement of these for anyone else considering this, pulling the bed is absolutely the best way to do it. I rigged up a couple of multi-shiv pulleys from the rafters of my garage and with a couple moving blankets I can pretty much do this by myself.

Will insufficient fuel pressure keep a nozzle from closing? I know oil opens them but how do they close? Spring, oil, fuel, all of the above?

AggieDiesel'01

'91 F250 4x4 XLT Lariat ext. cab ZF 5 speed, Ramsey 12k winch, Add-a-leaf in front, Ford Factory/ATS Upgraded Wastgated Turbo (installed @ 252k), 3.5in Hypermax Exhaust 330,000 and counting.

'97 F250 4x4 XLT CCSB Last of the good ones, 88,000 and counting. Not much done yet, came with gauges and a programmer.
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 12:17 PM
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Re: Good Truck gone Bad?!? Substantial Drivability Issues

For low boost I'd check the exhaust manifold bolts to head especially Driver's side toward firewall end of block. Not uncommon for the bolt heads to pop off causing a leak. Also check with flash lite from underside to see signs of carbon soot on the e manifold to block interface. You should be getting more than 18lbs boost. Unplug you MAP at the wire harness plug see if there is any difference how it runs. Clean out the exhaust back pressure tube that runs from front passenger exhaust manifold to the top of the block to sensor on passenger side HPOP. Take tube off and soak in brake clean then push wire cable down it hooked to drill and spin out the carbon build up.

Iirc you should see not more than 4.0 volts from the fuel peddle reostate at WOT. Do a search on power peddle mod on here, all three of my trucks needed modding as the voltage was low from factory.

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Red 97 F250 CC 3:55, D60 Air Locker front, 175/80s, T500, TW files, Tymar, SD I/C, 6.0 fan, E-air, E-Fuel, SRK, SD springs front/rear, 145 litre rear tank (now ZF-5
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 06:44 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Good Truck gone Bad?!? Substantial Drivability Issues

Thanks for the input, I read most of that in other posts when I was searching for resolution earlier and I have checked the manifolds and they aren't missing bolts yet and no carbon leaks that I can tell but I will clean the back pressure tube. For the pedal voltage, the peak I saw during my drives was 3.8. Is 4V the target or the limit? is 3.8 close enough?

AggieDiesel'01

'91 F250 4x4 XLT Lariat ext. cab ZF 5 speed, Ramsey 12k winch, Add-a-leaf in front, Ford Factory/ATS Upgraded Wastgated Turbo (installed @ 252k), 3.5in Hypermax Exhaust 330,000 and counting.

'97 F250 4x4 XLT CCSB Last of the good ones, 88,000 and counting. Not much done yet, came with gauges and a programmer.
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